ES vs accuracy

[Paper boy]

What would you say would be the best die set to upgrade to?

My opinon of course but, Forster dies #1 Redding #2

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well that's cool if u want to load 15-20 ES. I load because I don't want that. Glad it works out for u, however, I will continue to strive for below 10. To each their own and what they choose to spend their money on.

What Im saying is that long range accuracy is not tied to ES so long as it is reasonable. I load for smallest grouping at long range and let the ES fall where it does.

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

What are you using to throw and weight powder. Back in my chargemaster days I could never get super low ES. Since then I have been running fx120i and running expander mandrels and I can keep my SDs in low single digits. I use a chargemaster now to do initial throw and trickle up with dandy trickler on Fx120i. I think I solved my two biggest factors that affect ES and that was powder charge consistency and neck tension.

Who is the manufacturer of the FX 120i? (I can't find anything by that name.)

 

[MTbackwoods]

What Im saying is that long range accuracy is not tied to ES so long as it is reasonable. I load for smallest grouping at long range and let the ES fall where it does.

Right. That's kinda what I'm thinking. I've read a few other posts where guys say 20 is reasonable but it seems more common from what I've read that guys chase single digits. I got lucky with my 338 and it's at 6 with acceptable accuracy. The 7mm is more accurate but slightly higher ES. So I'm just gonna go shoot groups at my two best loads and let them do the talking. But shooting a 10 shot string for ES seems like abuse for a magnum barrel to me. Maybe I could just strap on my magneto and shoot my groups at distance? I know my poi is 4" high at 100 with the magneto on

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I snuck out before work this morning and shot these 3 groups at 1008 yd. The 9 shot cluster measures 3.351 and had 16' of extreme spread.

 

[TX Badger]

So by everyone's logic, if you have a good grouping load at distance, then you have a low ES/SD. So, why do I need to chronograph and see a printout to know that. I'm going to tweak my load either way until I see what I want to see. My point is, once I have a load that will shoot under MOA with an under 9lb hunting rifle off a bipod and rear bag and I do my job out to however far I've predetermined is my max hunting range, then I don't care what my ES is. I'd rather shoot at said distance, get some trigger time, actually see what the load does at said distance instead of looking at a printout screen. What I love about our sport/hobby is there are many ways to get to our desired goal. I also choose not to do OCW or Ladder tests. Just my preference. Yes, I've read a lot of Litz and even emailed with him about a ballistics program he was part of before he did the Applied Ballistcs program. They had an old BC for the first gen 300 grain 338 bullet and I couldn't get my drops on the program to match with what I was actually seeing. Spoke with him and he found the problem and corrected the program in about two days with an update. Great guy!! But shooting over a chronograph and looking for ES wasn't going to show me the actual problem. Regardless of how you choose to go about it, go enjoy the outdoors, shooting and learn everything you can so you can share with others. The only problem with our sport/hobby is, sometimes if you don't do it a certain way others say to do it then the you know what hits the fan. Keep us posted on your progress and your process. I'm watching to hopefully learn something new too. Good luck and have fun!!

I think everything you said makes sense if you can shoot at longer distances whenever you want. For a lot of people, 100yd ranges are everywhere and convenient, but you may have to drive hours to be able to shoot at distance. Then it's nice to do preliminary work at 100 with a chrono and have some promising loads to verify when you can really stretch them out.

 

[new2mud]

I snuck out before work this morning and shot these 3 groups at 1008 yd. The 9 shot cluster measures 3.351 and had 16' of extreme spread.View attachment 200398

Alex--cover up the other groups, and your gun is "1-3/4" @1000 all-day-long".
[/internet couch commando mode off]

Seriously, that is amazing load development and shooting.

 

[nt7332]

Who is the manufacturer of the FX 120i? (I can't find anything by that name.)

A&D Fx120i

 

[jrock]

I agree with Alex. I put more emphasis on accuracy than velocity data. Mostly because my chrono's standard error is so large, I don't trust any small ES numbers. Plus the holes on paper don't lie about what the actual speed is and my shooting ability.

Before I had a chrono, I did 100 yard only accuracy tests. Years later, I redid that that test but at long range and over a Chrono. I ended up at the same load based on accuracy. Based on velocity, the charge below at 0.3 grains less had better ES but accuracy was not there. I did repeated the test on different days and had the exact same results.

 

[Stammster]

I snuck out before work this morning and shot these 3 groups at 1008 yd. The 9 shot cluster measures 3.351 and had 16' of extreme spread.View attachment 200398

But you missed the bullseye!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Actually when tuning I try not to hit the bullseye. Its hard to see the colors of the bullets in the black dot. That one was almost too close.

 

[MTbackwoods]

 

[Dirtrax]

I am constantly baffled when folks argue time and again against proven, repeatable results. Thank you Mr. Wheeler for putting your groups where your mouth is.

 

[MTbackwoods]

Well the wind was less than ideal to shoot groups on paper today. However I went 4 for 4 on a 10" steel plate at 730 yards. Definitely a confidence builder