Crazy Berger Ogives...... W/ PICS

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by daniel brothers, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. daniel brothers

    daniel brothers Well-Known Member

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    I've been working up a load on my 22-243 AI with 90 gr Berger VLDs, and got it shooting good enough for me. The group below is the first 6 shots fired at 296 yds. The wild one is 1 1/2" high, but the other 5 are at a dime. I want to keep shooting this load...BUT... I just found out that the Ogives and Bullet Lengths are different in each box of bullets. Most of the boxes are close with each other, but the bullets I used in working up this load are shorter and fatter than the rest of the boxes... so what do I do now. Here is what I have.....

    Ogive to base measures... .703 total bullet length is....1.225 (my workup length)

    Most of the bullets in the other boxes average a ogive measurement of...
    660-670....with total length = 1.265-70

    AND>>>> AND>>>>> When I seated a .703 bullet and a .670 bullet with the same seating depth measurement as I was before... the 703 bullet had a total length of 2.782.... and the .670 measured a total of 2.831.

    Man O Man.... that's a .49 spread difference.

    So what do I do now.... start my workup all over again with the .670 bullets... since I've only got a few more of the .703...?

    I'm hoping you guys have a better answer than starting all over again.... thanks....Dan

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  2. jf239

    jf239 Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry about cartridge over all length, measure with a comparorator ( I us hornadys) and measure cartridge base to ogive. This will ensure your bullet engages the rifling the same every time. Who cares about how long the total cartridge is
     

  3. ol_spark

    ol_spark Active Member

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    How are you measuring your base to ogive? If you are using some type of bullet comparator, you should be getting closer dimension than that. I wouldn't be concerned with cartridge overall length except that it fits in a magazine if you using a repeater. Most shooters looking for accuracy are seating their bullets to the same bottom of case to ogive dimension not overall cartage length. Did you shoot more groups to see if they were the same or is this a one time deal? Try it again. Results may surprise you.
     
  4. Edd

    Edd Well-Known Member

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    Are the part numbers on the boxes the same? Berger has had at least two versions of 90 gr 22 cal bullets.
     
  5. pyroducksx3

    pyroducksx3 Well-Known Member

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    When I get a new box I pull out the Hornady lock n load oal gauge tool. Get the bullet ogive to touch the lands, measured multiple times until I'm confident I got it right. Then I go shoot and recheck zero and drops to confirm all is well. This is why I buy my bullets in the 500 ct boxes. For my 7 mag I bought two 500ct boxes from the same run. I haven't had any problems doing it this way yet.
     
  6. daniel brothers

    daniel brothers Well-Known Member

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    The part numbers on the boxes are not all the same, because these bullets are scarce and you have to buy them from guys who have a box or two for sale... so getting group lots all the same was not possible.

    I've been using Hornys bullet comparator for the ogive measurements. When the bullets were the same length, I was using the full total length of the round as my measurement... but now... as you guys have said... I'll focus on the length from ogive to shell base... which should make the closer to being right. BUT... that will pull the bullets out futher towards the lands, which will change pressure and fps.... won't it...?

    This group below is shot at the same bullseye, but at 360 yds... which dropped a little lower than that other group as you can see. That is 4 shots in that smaller group... and the wider one is to the right... my buddy says it was me or the wind... either way... I'm calling the group of 4 to be the TRUE group...or point of impact.
    This is the second time I tried for longer groups with this load, with .703 ogive bullets... past 100 yds... so I'm wanting to keep this load.


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  7. Edd

    Edd Well-Known Member

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    Part numbers and lot numbers are two different things. What are the part numbers?
     
  8. Azprc

    Azprc Well-Known Member

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    My experience with the 90 bergers is that there is one flyer out of 5 rounds fired. AMU had same troubles and it is easily found in Google. I had run them in a cartridge I modified and could not get past the one flyer every time. Try the 90 SMK and see if you still get the flyer, I will bet that it goes away. Look in Bryan's book and as a note in the bottom he said "The narrow ogive profile and small diameter of these 90 grain bullets makes them difficult for the chronograph sensors to detect. This results in somewhat noisy data, so 10 shots were used instead of the 5 for these bullets." It seems that the "noisy data" is controversial between guys that use them. That is the only bullet in his whole book with any kind of note like that. We shot them in 6.7 twist AR 15 rifle at 2905 fps and after several others loading the ammo and shooting them, it was always constant that there was a flyer.
     
  9. Azprc

    Azprc Well-Known Member

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    I originally found it with my fast twist 22-250 AI that I had built just for that bullet and ended up going with the SMK. Only guys having good luck with them is in the 22CM with the velocity over 3350. I would think with the 243 case you should be able to get them over 3300. If you can, you might be GTG. I should have clarified that when pushed slower than that 3300 number is when the flyer exists, but I have no reason why. I could not push them that hard in the 250 case.
     
  10. daniel brothers

    daniel brothers Well-Known Member

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    Dad-Gum... with all the boxes that I have, I would start out with the .703 bullets, that are part # 22426 BT Target Long Range..... and the VLD's are #22423....LOL.... I'm shaking my head.... how stupid... I took it for granite that they were all VLD's...NOT... that one box was BT Target... no wonder they measure different... read the label dummy....LOL.

    I guess I'll push that box aside and work up a load with the VLD's.

    Thanks for the insight...I NEED IT...
     
  11. daniel brothers

    daniel brothers Well-Known Member

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    I'm pushing 80 amaxes consistently at 3506... these 90 bergers should be at least in the 3400 area, but I have not used the chrony yet...but will.

    The flyer was not my concern as much as the ogives being off, and wondering how that is going to effect my fps and pressure... I guess I'll re-test the VLD bullets this time correctly.

    Ps... Azprc... I'll be out your way in Mt the whole month of Nov chasing coyotes... I'll have to contact you about them

    Ps again.... I talked to a Gov Hunter/Trapper last night that said he tried 90 smk's... but they dropped 18" more at 1000 yds than the bergers.