Clean bore vs. Fouled bore?

[mwkelso]

I think this is ALL good advice. When you are doing a methodical process to develop your best load, it's essential to be sure that you're getting what you think you're getting. Otherwise, you're just spinning your wheels. With any load development method, you just can't have a bunch of variables in the equation.

As for your comment about this all being "hunting 101," I'm in full agreement on that as well. The rifle I used for everything for the first ten years of my hunting was one that would shoot the first round about six inches high at one hundred yards from a squeaky-clean barrel. Each successive bullet hole would be closer to point-of-aim, until rounds 4, 5, & 6 were in a cloverleaf cluster right where I wanted them - 12 o'clock and 2.5" high. The moral of the story was always to shoot three rounds through the barrel, and don't clean it until hunting season is over. I always verified my sight-in zero immediately before deer season opened. Everybody at our deer camp did the same thing, and the old guys had taught us to do this. It was the gospel in our camp, and my particular rifle was the perfect poster-child for why they had taught us this.

Just for clarification purposes, by having a fouled barrel you mean no cleaning at all? More specifically no bore snake if your barrel shoots better fouled?
PS- I am one of the ones learning. These are things that even after 10 years in the field I have not been taught. Great information to know.

 

[J E Custom]

I agree with your analysis only exception I ever seen personally was in a 15 inch hand gun that shot cast bullets . It always always shot and gave a better POI with a cleaned barrel .

This is the reason that I stopped using cast bullets. Nothing wrong with them, but the changing accuracy bothered me so I felt like I had to clean every shot. For self defense they worked well but the jacketed bullets were more consistent and less fouling on the big Magnums.

I have seen many great pistols sold because the owner though the barrel was bad. Turns out they were just fowled/leaded and after a through cleaning the barrel was pristine.

J E CUSTOM

 

[teckjoe]

Saw an good video from barbor long range shooting school, I believe that's right. In any case he showed the difference between making your first shot with a clean bore vs a folded bore, I've got to say I believe he's on to something considering you can't for the most part BS physics. Bottom line is most of us zero with a fouled bore, unless you clean after every shot. So here's my question has anyone seen any real practical issues with this, for the record he was shooting at a 1000 yards. The differance was significant enough that I like to hear from you guys. Thanks in advance

I never clean my guns on unless I'm putting them away for a long time. Then I spray them down with Ballistol and run a snake through the barrel. That is all, I never scrub by barrels.

 

[foul bore]

my member name is "foul bore" for a reason

 

[Deleted member 107796]

Like most everything else, I believe this to be rifle specific. Just having returned from the range, I had a chance to test this with 3 different rifles that were thoroughly cleaned with copper solvent and brushed clean:

Tikka T3 Lite 338WM: the first shot was not an outlier and the first 4 shot group was very tight.

Tikka T3 Lite .308: the first shot was 2" above the rest of the 5 shot group. No other outliers.

Ruger American 450 Bushmaster: The first 5 shot group was tight with no outliers.

In short, from only my experience with the 12 calibers I reload for, I'd say that mostly, the first shot will be affected by being shot from a clean barrel, but not always.

 

[tony d willIiams]

Saw an good video from barbor long range shooting school, I believe that's right. In any case he showed the difference between making your first shot with a clean bore vs a folded bore, I've got to say I believe he's on to something considering you can't for the most part BS physics. Bottom line is most of us zero with a fouled bore, unless you clean after every shot. So here's my question has anyone seen any real practical issues with this, for the record he was shooting at a 1000 yards. The differance was significant enough that I like to hear from you guys. Thanks in advance

I clean in January unless my accuracy has failed. Then I go shooting to properly foul my barrel. Cold bore shots are possible.
Short shots it barely shows, after a quarter mile the error is progressive

 

[drborsos]

This is pretty simple. Shoot your rifle for 20 rounds, starting with a clean bore and record the results. Yes, first shots win most of the time while hunting, but why take the chance if you need a follow up shot. If that follow up shot is not consistent with the clean barrel shot you are in trouble.

 

[dussendigs]

Hey guys, good question I know everyone has their own opinion on this but my two cents for what they are worth : 50 years of hunting and target shooting have convinced me it is better to hunt with a fouled barrel I shoot and hunt with a wide variety of rifles of different calibers and my experience ( for what it's worth) is more consistent shot repeatability with a fouled barrel. I don't pretend to be an expert this is just my 2 cents as I say . Thanks guys I
really enjoy these posts, sorry for being so wordy

 

[Andrew Cowling]

As a smith I get asked this a lot. It really comes down to the quality of the barrel.

Leaving copper in for long periods of time, especially in damp environments, can cause electrolysis between the copper and steel of the barrel eating the bore away. Seen way to many stuffed barrels due to this to not be cleaning.

Clean cold, dirty cold or dirty hot with a good quality barrel the point of impact will remain the same. I get a lot of clients coming to me complaining about the shots "walking" up the target as consecutive shots were fired. So, check the barrel chanel and bedding first. A floated barrel and good tight bedding has improved a lot of them.

Had a few barrels that still after the improvements had shots still "walk" as the barrel heated up and fouled up, although better than before the improvements were done. So changed the barrel out for a good quality unit that was lapped and correctly stress relieved. After a proper running in, now the clean cold shot to dirty fouled and hot shot is exactly the same point of impact. Clients can rely on the first shot being the the same as the last and because it is such good quality there is very little to no copper fouling after 50 shots fired. Borescope said it all.

So, it will come down to the quality of the barrel on your rifle. I sold a rifle not long ago to my young off sider. A 1970's Parker Hale 98 mauser in 7x57 in a light weight profile. Bore was mint with no machining marks found. Shots walked all over the target at 100 metres. So I floated the original wooden stock and gave it a great tight bedding job and a good recoil pad. Adding to this I cleaned the bore completely of all fouling and we proceeded to go through a complete running in cycle as if it was a new barrel. Well bugger me!!! That barrel settled down and now the clean cold first shot hits the same point as a hot dirty shot. 20 rounds got the barrel hot enough to not be able to hold onto yet a 6 inch disc at 300 meters was being consistently hit.

Me, I like my barrels clean but I also know that each one will hit and maintain the same point regarless.

 

[J E Custom]

Just for clarification purposes, by having a fouled barrel you mean no cleaning at all? More specifically no bore snake if your barrel shoots better fouled?
PS- I am one of the ones learning. These are things that even after 10 years in the field I have not been taught. Great information to know.

Good question. I will try to answer based on my experiences.

Using Logic. The most consistent a barrel will ever be is clean. Any fouling can/will change the bore from one group to another because fouling by nature is not consistent.

If you intend to shoot once while hunting, a clean barrel or a fouling shot before the second cold bore will be the most repeatable and will always be the most consistent If zeroed this way. After the first or second shot depending on the barrel bore quality, the accuracy may hold for 3, 4 or more shots.

There are basically three types of accurate barrels. The ones that will always shoot the first 3 or 4+ shots best with a clean barrel.
The second type is a barrel that needs one fouling shot to free the bore of any oils or other foreign objects like dust and moisture.
The third type will only settle down after so many shots, again depending on barrel quality. Most of the time these barrels will shoot very well the first few shots, with the exception of the first fouling shot.

I hunt with a clean dry patched barrel and can always depend on the zero to remain the same. Other barrels/rifles I hunt with are more predictable if I shoot One fouling shot and dry patch for the hunt.
I have hunted over 50 years and never needed a second shot (I don't consider my self anything but just a good shot but I am very good at judging if I can make the shot or not and if I don't have 100% confidence, I simply wait or pass.

My match rifles are required to shoot up to 100 shots without being cleaned so my Best load for this condition if based on a fouled barrel.

This rifle will consistently shoot SUB MOA groups with iron sites, But if I clean it to bright metal, for the first 6 or 8 rounds it will shoot sub 1/2 MOA with the same sights and ammo. If I were going to hunt with this rifle, I would utilize the clean barrel system.

All of my best groups have been with clean barrels (Less than 6 shots)

I clean for many reasons one being for hunting accuracy and the other for barrel life. Every time you shoot a bullet through your barrel the carbon left by the previous shot will abrade the barrel. In the field, I carry a bore snake just to sweep this powder fouling out of the barrel so I am ready for a second shot later (It wont remove copper fouling if used this way, but it does remove powder and carbon deposits that can harm/ware the bore.

Find out which type of barrel you have and hunt it that way.

J E CUSTOM

 

[nicholasjohn]

Just for clarification purposes, by having a fouled barrel you mean no cleaning at all? More specifically no bore snake if your barrel shoots better fouled?
PS- I am one of the ones learning. These are things that even after 10 years in the field I have not been taught. Great information to know.

Don't know - I never thought to try a bore snake. I was told that it was the oil in the bore that caused the problem, but I doubt that anybody really knew - just repeating to us what they were told by the old-timers. Maybe a dry patch or two, or a couple of passes with a brush wouldn't hurt. That said, if I'm not going to clean it "squeaky-clean" I don't know what I'd be gaining to do that. While I don't like the idea of my expensive barrel being all dirty inside for a week or two, I do it anyway. I want to be sure that it shoots where I think it's going to shoot when the opportunity arises. I only get to shoot at a really big buck about every third or fourth year, so I want to be sure the bullet is going where I want it to go. It is hard on barrel steel, but they make new barrels every day. As for your "still learning" comment, that's my story, too - and that's why I read this forum. If you do try the bore snake, please post your results here - maybe I'm about to learn a new trick …………...

 

[Greyfox]

As mentioned in a prior post in this thread, I hunt and compete with a fouled bore. Unless subjected to excessive moisture, I want the bore undisturbed from the initially fouled state, and not wiped or swabbed while in use for competition or hunting. Most all my hunting rifles are accuracy tested to 60 shots consisting of both cold bore and consecutive shots. This is much more then sufficient to get me through a hunting season. If accuracy falls of at fewer rounds before cleaning, the round count will be noted, or a remedy attempted if too few. My competition rifles have higher shot requirements. For example, I expect my PRS rifles to hold accuracy for at least one match(100 rounds), preferably two matches before cleaning. Having run the full spectrum of cleaning regiments over the years, I think the quality of the barrel and the load are more critical factors, and will influence the cleaning requirements. I have personally seen little difference in barrel life when subjected to incessant cleaning. With a good barrel, I experience little to no difference in cleaning time of carbon/copper and number of patches/residue between 20 shots and 150 shots. I will clean my rifle regardless of the number of shots fired if it is to be left unused or stored for greater then one or two months.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

All good advice. Your rifle will tell you if you let it. My worst case is a 270 Savage that takes 4-5 shots to settle down. First shot out of a clean bore will be 8" off at 200yds.

 

[mwkelso]

Don't know - I never thought to try a bore snake. I was told that it was the oil in the bore that caused the problem, but I doubt that anybody really knew - just repeating to us what they were told by the old-timers. Maybe a dry patch or two, or a couple of passes with a brush wouldn't hurt. That said, if I'm not going to clean it "squeaky-clean" I don't know what I'd be gaining to do that. While I don't like the idea of my expensive barrel being all dirty inside for a week or two, I do it anyway. I want to be sure that it shoots where I think it's going to shoot when the opportunity arises. I only get to shoot at a really big buck about every third or fourth year, so I want to be sure the bullet is going where I want it to go. It is hard on barrel steel, but they make new barrels every day. As for your "still learning" comment, that's my story, too - and that's why I read this forum. If you do try the bore snake, please post your results here - maybe I'm about to learn a new trick …………...

Sorry for the results delay. I did try using a bore snake alone and saw no difference in point of impact. This was with two different rifles, both fouled. It was interesting to see the difference between what the two barrels like for fouling. The T/C 300wm likes about 6-7 shots before it starts grouping tight. But the Weatherby 270win saw no difference in POI from round 1 to round 40.
I think this gives a lot of merit to what JE Custom has written above in this thread, speaking to the quality of manufacturing of the barrel. Not that T/C is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but there are visibly less tooling marks in the Weatherby's barrel.