Brass Separation Above Belt

[Alex Wheeler]

You cant size the WEB its solid brass. The ring above it as you call it is part of the case body and you dont need a ring die to fix it if you fl size every time. Those are dies made to fix problems created by not fl sizing properly.

 

[CatShooter]

You cant size the WEB its solid brass. The ring above it as you call it is part of the case body and you dont need a ring die to fix it if you fl size every time. Those are dies made to fix problems created by not fl sizing properly.

It is NOT FL sizing that controls the size of that ring - it is the diameter of the bottom of the die - and a ring die does it just as well as a tightly fitted custom FL die, but without pushing the shoulder back. Moving the shoulder has nothing to do with the base of the case.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You made my point, its the diameter of the base of the die. Neck sizing doesnt touch the case, which allows it to grow to excess, now needed a specialized ring die to fix a problem caused because of neck sizing. If you full length size every time you will only need to full length size you cases with one die, the same way every time until the cases are done. Usually when the primers wont stay in or you toss them when you re-barrel. I never wore out a case in competition, or ever actually. I have never had a case head separation either. Just tossed them when I re barreled. Usually 20-25 loadings. There is a wrong way to fl size. If you have done it the correct way you would know your cases last forever. I am not saying to over size. But if done right, you will have longer case life and more consistency. Dont take my word for it talk to a current Benchrest shooter, ask them if any of them neck size and how long their cases last. They do shoot the smallest groups on the planet and they shoot a LOT.

 

[CatShooter]

You made my point, its the diameter of the base of the die. Neck sizing doesnt touch the case, which allows it to grow to excess, now needed a specialized ring die to fix a problem caused because of neck sizing. If you full length size every time you will only need to full length size you cases with one die, the same way every time until the cases are done. Usually when the primers wont stay in or you toss them when you re-barrel. I never wore out a case in competition. Just tossed them when I re barreled. Usually 20-25 loadings. There is a wrong way to fl size. I am not saying to over size. But if done right, you will have longer case life and more consistency. Dont take my word for it talk to a current Benchrest shooter, ask them if any of them neck size and how long their cases last. They do shoot the smallest groups on the planet and they shoot a LOT.

I did not "make your point"... most FL dies will not get close to the bottom of the die. The only ones that will, are the custom FL dies, and the small base dies (and not all of them will). It has nothing to do with FL dies. There are tons of FL dies that will NOT touch the base of the case.

I used to shoot bench, so I don't need to ask anyone... been there, shot group (now a dinosaur). The closest "group" matches are a 9 hour drive from me, each way.

The current trend in BR is "score" shooting.
In "score" shooting, the "need for speed" in shooting is more important that the absolute accuracy.
The accepted method is to wait for a lull in the wind, or a wind constant, and then shoot 5 shots as quickly as possible - maybe 15 to 20 seconds.
Now, no way in hell can precise sighting be made in 4 seconds... but the big deal is that the rifle doesn't roll in the bags, which would make the shooter lose the match cuz it would break his cadence. So the case MUST be loose in the chamber - THAT IS WHY THEY FL SIZE!! NOT because it is more accurate... you've been around the block, you know this stuff!

A 100yd score rifle in 30BR that shoots a 0.300" group is capable of shooting a perfect "score", whereas the same rifle would be laughed off the line at a "group" match... so the current bunch of bench rest shooters is NOT a source of information on extreme accuracy, in spite of their own opinion of themselves.

 

[J E Custom]

Sizing brass is a maintenance thing. The reason you full length size every time is to make the cases last as long as possible. The base of the case expands. Most of the time the dies do not not size the base enough. If you neck size you allow the base to expand every firing and a lot of times you cant bring it back down even with a small base die. Full length sizing with a correctly sized die pushing the shoulder back minimally will produce the best accuracy and longest life. Competitors have been doing this for many years. Be careful with having a little resistance on your bolt close, thats a great way to gall the back of the lugs.

This is not to start an hot debate, But I would still full size all of my brass if this was true. I competed in high power matches for 15 years
And had to full length my rapid fire loads to expedite loading. I used a bolt action and had to load 5 rounds at a time. we had 60 seconds including getting into position to fire from a standing position which used up at Least 10 of those 60 seconds for all 10 rounds.

I also fired precision ammo at the other distances where time was not an issue. These loads were my most accurate in the same rifle and won me many 600 and 1000 yard matches with a 308. I also still hold the rapid fire range record at my gun range With a perfect score of 200 x18 Xs. This is not meant to brag but just to help explain why I full size my rapid fire rounds and neck size "Only" my precision long range accuracy ammo For the same matches with the same rifle.

This is the/my results and reason I do case sizing this way.

1st= the full sized brass for rapid fire only lasted 3 to 4 rounds before
being discarded. The slow fire ammo was loaded at the same velocity using the same bullet with neck sizing only lasted 8 to 10 rounds without and case separations and case thinning was the reason for discarding the brass.

My accuracy loads that were neck sized only would consistently shoot in the .300s with iron sites. The full length loads would consistently shoot 1/2 MOA .(Good , but not as good as the neck sized ammo). both loads were MAX SAMME pressure loads for the 308 at 1000 yards and needed to be consistent at all distances for site adjustments in all conditions.

Brass is one of the materials that work harden is dimensional changes are a frequent occurrence. and the more dimensional changes, the faster the work hardening. So less is more in my opinion.

I also watched the Video and that guy is full of it and all he knows is what he has been told. One piece of advice to all reading this, If you believe everything you see or hear on the web, you are in for a rough ride. When I was competing, the top shooters would say one thing and do another because they wanted to keep their edge. I heard plenty of these comments to new shooters and in many cases the top shooters would later comment to there friends that would scold them for telling
A whopper "If he is stupid enough to believe me , its his problem" I'm not going to help my competitors out shoot me"

Bottom line, What works the best for you, is the way you should load.
I know what works best for me and no one will ever convince me that Full sizing will make your brass last longer and be more consistent. The chamber is the truest shape the brass/case can take, The less you alter this shape the more accurate the load and the longer the brass life. The bench rest Gunsmith that taught me Did not size his brass al all, He chambered the case where he could use the same case for a match with out sizing/altering the case shape. "Simple"

J E CUSTOM

 

[Alex Wheeler]

"Used to" is key here. A lot has changed, so yes ask a current Benchrest shooter. I am not talking score shooters. Group shooters. 90% of my full time business is building long range Benchrest rifles. All the smallest group aggs, world records ext. are done with fl sized cases. No one in neck sizing in the accuracy game. I would go as far to say there is not a group record left standing today done with neck sized cases. I even spec reamers a little bigger to make cases even looser, why? Because they shoot smaller groups like that. Test it.
"There are tons of FL dies that will NOT touch the base of the case." Thats why I said properly full length sized.
I would agree with everything your saying 20 years ago.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

This is not to start an hot debate, But I would still full size all of my brass if this was true. I competed in high power matches for 15 years
And had to full length my rapid fire loads to expedite loading. I used a bolt action and had to load 5 rounds at a time. we had 60 seconds including getting into position to fire from a standing position which used up at Least 10 of those 60 seconds for all 10 rounds.

I also fired precision ammo at the other distances where time was not an issue. These loads were my most accurate in the same rifle and won me many 600 and 1000 yard matches with a 308. I also still hold the rapid fire range record at my gun range With a perfect score of 200 x18 Xs. This is not meant to brag but just to help explain why I full size my rapid fire rounds and neck size "Only" my precision long range accuracy ammo For the same matches with the same rifle.

This is the/my results and reason I do case sizing this way.

1st= the full sized brass for rapid fire only lasted 3 to 4 rounds before
being discarded. The slow fire ammo was loaded at the same velocity using the same bullet with neck sizing only lasted 8 to 10 rounds without and case separations and case thinning was the reason for discarding the brass.

My accuracy loads that were neck sized only would consistently shoot in the .300s with iron sites. The full length loads would consistently shoot 1/2 MOA .(Good , but not as good as the neck sized ammo). both loads were MAX SAMME pressure loads for the 308 at 1000 yards and needed to be consistent at all distances for site adjustments in all conditions.

Brass is one of the materials that work harden is dimensional changes are a frequent occurrence. and the more dimensional changes, the faster the work hardening. So less is more in my opinion.

I also watched the Video and that guy is full of it and all he knows is what he has been told. One piece of advice to all reading this, If you believe everything you see or hear on the web, you are in for a rough ride. When I was competing, the top shooters would say one thing and do another because they wanted to keep their edge. I heard plenty of these comments to new shooters and in many cases the top shooters would later comment to there friends that would scold them for telling
A whopper "If he is stupid enough to believe me , its his problem" I'm not going to help my competitors out shoot me"

Bottom line, What works the best for you, is the way you should load.
I know what works best for me and no one will ever convince me that Full sizing will make your brass last longer and be more consistent. The chamber is the truest shape the brass/case can take, The less you alter this shape the more accurate the load and the longer the brass life. The bench rest Gunsmith that taught me Did not size his brass al all, He chambered the case where he could use the same case for a match with out sizing/altering the case shape. "Simple"

J E CUSTOM

Erik Cortina is a national f-class champion. I still hold 2 1k yd world record group aggs, my builds have broken 7 long range BR world records this year alone. We are not full of it and we dont lie. Not one of my customers is neck sizing. I write this stuff because its my job to make guys shoot smaller. Its all free, and its what the CURRENT best shooters in the long range accuracy game are doing and groups have never been smaller.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I'll leave this alone now. I have said my piece on it and dont have anything left to ad.
Thanks,
Alex

 

[tom m.]

I have a buddy that had a re-barrel done recently on a 338 Win. He shot a box of Hornady Precision Hunter ammo with 230 Eld-X's through it for break in. He then FL sized and loaded the same brass with same bullet and a mild charge. He shot 6 rounds and each one was beginning to separate just above the belt. Out of curiosity he found a piece of Rem. brass and loaded it up with an even milder charge and the results were the same. What would be the cause of this issue? Is it possible that it's an issue with head spacing?

Here's a link to Alex's videos where you'll find one or two on this subject.

https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

A micrometer, the appropriate datum comparator, a pad of paper and a pencil is all you need to diagnose the culprit.

Tom

 

[Rich Coyle]

This is interesting. I ran a full length sizing and neck sizing test with a Savage .223. This included half dozen five shot groups of each. The neck sized groups were consistently smaller than the full length groups. The full length sizing was done only enough to close the bolt with the slightest closing resistance. The neck sized brass gave no resistance on closing.

By the way the worst group this particular Savage shot was a .494".

 

[bigedp51]

The only rifles I neck size for are some of my milsurp rifles like the .303 Enfield with oversized chambers and undersized dies. Everything else is full length resized and is my preferred method.

The first time I read the statement below was at the old "The Rifleman's Journal" website and German Salazar was quoting the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Below is more advice from "Team Lapua USA" and Kevin Thomas. (click on the image to enlarge)

Below is from "The Rifleman's Journal" website and German Salazar is answering a question about partial full length resizing. And he is explaining the benefits of full length resizing and how the cartridge fits the chamber.

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."

German Salazar also wrote articles on how a case can warp if the case does not have uniform case wall thickness. The thin side of the case expands more causing the case to warp and become banana shaped. This warping causes the base of the case to tilt and be no longer 90 degrees to the axis of the bore. And this causes the case to be misaligned with the chamber and the bullet to tilt in the throat if the case is neck sized and a tight fit in the chamber.

Below is to prove there are warped banana shaped cases for the unbelievers.

Concentricity, Wall Thickness and Runout Gauge
The NECO, patented, Case Gauge is the most versatile instrument available for measuring the various accuracy determining factors of cartridge cases, bullets and loaded ammunition. No other gauge can measure all of the following: 1.Banana curvature of case. 2.Wall and neck thickness variations. 3.Case head squareness. 4.Banana curvature and out-of-round shape of individual bullets. 5.Runout of seated bullet. 6.Total runout of loaded cartridge.

Bottom line, the quality of your cases and the case having uniform case wall thickness has a great effect on your accuracy. And when the case warps it will cause the cartridge to tip in the chamber and the bullet will not be aligned with the axis of the bore. And full length resizing minimizes any guiding effect the case body has on the bullet alignment in the throat. And bumping the shoulder back .001 to .002 each time allows the ejector to push the base of the case away from the bolt face. Meaning minimizing the effect of a case with a tilted base and bullet alignment in the bore.

The best part of reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it. (even if he is wrong)

And below shows how much CatShooter loves the Lee collet die when he neck sizes his cases. As you can see each case neck is torqued to the same exact inch pound setting for perfect bullet grip.

Even Saddam Hussein's cat prefers neck sizing and had a big influence on CatShooter.

Happy New Year and try to keep your sense humor and be kind to your cats.

 

[Rich Coyle]

"Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway." "

With the above mentioned Savage .223 I did a square head and factory head accuracy test running half dozen five shot groups of each. The random factory Remington brass varied from zero to .002" "wave". Maybe there is a more technical term for that. The other cases were all squared in a Wilson case trimmer. Some showed square as soon as the cutter hit the head. All the cases were fired once and then neck sized before the test because I found this rifle preferred neck sized brass.

The square head cases were more accurate.

 

[J E Custom]

I guess that I need to post an apology if I offended you Alex, That was not my intention at all. I just get tired of hearing all of these Internet experts state that there way is the only way, There is no one way to do anything and the purpose of any good site is to present many different ways to do something and let the reader decide which is the best way for him and the use intended. As stated. I do just about every type of sizing and use about every type of die to get the best performance for my needs. It is not always about accuracy only, it is about the best of everything for that particular use.

I see and view Videos all the time and sometimes I even learn something from them, But most are a slanted view of the persons opinion that makes him "THE" expert and all other opinions are BS. The one thing that I have found out in 76 Years is that "NO one Knows it all" and there are many different ways to do ONE thing.

There are However a few things that are true and cannot be disputed Like work hardening certain alloys. Any material that work hardens is effected by the amount and frequency of alteration(Sizing ). So no matter what credentials or records a person has it does not mystically eliminate any work hardening caused by ANY Resizing.

The guy on the Video is making a statement that No Body does that any more. and some of the newer shooters may believe that if not privy to other experiences and opinions. I learned many lessons the hard way by listening to guys that I thought were the experts only to find out later that the only thing that they were was a "legend in there on mind" and cause many people to learn the hard way, sometimes with catastrophic results.

I have friends that come up with some of the most ridicules things and as long as they don't hurt me or anyone else, I just blow it off But when it is a known fact that it is not true, I will give them my opinion and let them make the decision for better or worse.

The only thing I don't agree with is that there is only one way to do anything and any other way is wrong or is just not done anymore because it is stupid. I am known to be anal about doing everything as perfect as it can be done and leave no stone unturned when building my rifles. But the best rifle in the world will not shoot if it does not have the very best ammo loaded for it and a very good shooter to put the hold package together. I load ammo the best I can for its use and the rifles likes. So again, One way of loading, sizing, prepping, ETC does not work for every situation, so I size many different ways to get the optimum performance for the use and that includes brass life and accuracy as long as it performs its best in other areas. If some special condition or requirement is needed I adjust the procedure to accommodate these needs.

Again sorry if I offended anyone, but sometimes a second opinion is necessary and like everyone else I have my opinion and with real proof can change my mind. Don't believe anything you hear/see on line and only half of what you see in person or can prove through testing and record keeping.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Rich Coyle]

J E Custom,

This is a fantastic heads up post. Thanks for taking the time.