Best of the West. Your longrange authority. Seriously?? (Rant)

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Michael Eichele, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    So I am watching TBOTW last night and is it just me or is that show more about sales pitches for huskemaw scopes and berger bullets? Namely the 7mm. I meen come on, do they really think that custom dials and 2 MOA wind holds make standard MOA or MIL dials and reticles obsolete? They flat out said that standard reticles and dials just dont work. Sure those custom dials work when the temperature is right. What if the dial is calibrated for 60 degrees and a 20 degree cold front moves in and the shot is long? Then what? How about when there is a 38 degree angle at 700 yards. Then what? The windage numbers on the elevation dials are nice for when the wind is 10 MPH and a 90 degree angle. How about when it is 4 MPH and from 1:30? How about 7:30? What about spin drift?

    There will still be math involved for alot of shooting scenarios.

    Now I wont lie, there are some cases where TBOTW system works very well. Out to 600 yards, fairly level ground, modest wind, etc.....But when shots get longer, steeper, spin drift greater, temperature more extreme, wind inconsistencies, then calculators and standard adjustments or hold overs cant be beat for a PRECISION shot (IMHO). "Standard dials and reticles just dont work". Wow! Seems like a sales pitch to me.

    Then, they compare the 300 RUM versus the 7mm RM. Now I dont have a problem with the comparison (I dont care for the 300 RUM much either) but I do expect them to give accurate information. The info given for the 300 RUM was accurate, however they didnt use information for the 300 RUM's true potential. 165 grain bullet at 3300 FPS? are you kidding me? We all know that the 300 RUM will drive those little bullets a heck of a lot fater than that. So then they give the 7mm info using its max potential AND using a VLD bullet instead of a hunting bullet like they did for the 300 RUM. Does that seem fair. Now for the real insult to this community......A flat out fairy tale. They claimed that the 168 Berger fired 1t 3000 FPS would deliver 1200 foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards AND drift 47" in a 10 MPH wind. WTF????? Unless there is some magical BC there that I dont know about, they are about 150 pounds off AND 13" of drift off. Now I am not saying 1050 pounds of energy and 60" of drift is bad, but come on, get your information right. Why make something sound better than it really is?? Sounds like a sales pitch to me. All they had to do was compare apples to apples and use info for the 300 RUM using true velocity potential and another berger bullet such as the 168 VLD. The 7mm would still win the fight, BUT not by as much as they say and if they used a bullet weight in porportion such as the 190 VLD, it of course would hit harder, and drift less while making a bigger hole. Dont compare a berger VLD for one caliber and max velocity potential versus a bullet of similar weight and a totally different design AND at less than max velocity potential. He!! if we wanted to do that I could make the 308 look better on paper than the 30-378 using top BC bullets at max velocity potential in the 308 versus bullets of small BC at less than max velocity potential in the 30-378. Ahhhh, but then it wouldnt be apples to apples now would it?

    Sorry for the rant, I just HAD to get that off my chest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  2. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    I bet your blood pressure is now way down in the SAFE range again. :):):)

    Any BDC turret is not perfect but it sure works well for me. This image shows the original 243AI conditions for the turret I used two days ago in the WY Big Horns, and 2 other sets of conditions for my actual 6.5/284 rifle's load for a Casper hunt and and in the Big Horns.

    [​IMG]

    I took a doe at 722 yards. I was using a turret developed for my 243AI load on my new 6.5/284 rifle. The turret was for a lower altitude, lower BC, different velocity. When I laid drop charts next to each other for both sets of conditions, I needed no modifications until I was out to 700 yards.

    If I remember correctly (big if :)), I took off one click for the angle, and one click for the chart differences. For greater conditional differences I'd just carry a little cheat sheet chart. Not much different than carrying several sets of charts for use with a MOA turret. But, hey, use whatever you want.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010

  3. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    You know me so well!!!
     
  4. Oliveralan

    Oliveralan Well-Known Member

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    I totaly agree, at least half the show is them and the guys they take on free hunts exclaiming how the only way to shoot at xxx range is with the huskemaw scope combination... Are you kidding me?
    I believe they are knowledgable guys, must suck to make yourself look stupid for tv all the time.

    I wish there were another show that didn't seem like an advertisement for their $4000 rem 700 rebuild and scope..

    I honestly believe they are responsible for a lot of inexperienced guys going out and injuring game, they regularily put some guy with basicly zero experience on that gun or shooting LR in general and show how they're killing stuff way out there and the. Saying how they couldn't do it without the huskemaw. They are implying "buy our scope and you can do this too!"
     
  5. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    Michael,
    I agree with everything you stated. The custom turrets have their place when sighted under conditions similar to the location where one will be hunting. My problem is I sight in in the flat lands and hunt in the mountains with common angled elevation and declination shots, up to 30 degrees or more, at much different atmospheric pressures.

    Please don't go the way of goodgrouper! He started a low level rant with very credible information that got pretty extreme. He had very valid points, almost all of which I agreed with. But I wish he hadn't boiled over because I miss his posts on this Forum. A lot of us LRHs are very passionate and opinionated. Stubborn in fact - to the point where we need to shake our heads every once in a while and practice "live an let live". I need to take my own advice more often than not.

    Some of the most stubborn have some of the best experiences to share and learn from.

    But for the record, I'm with you on this one.
     
  6. jeff 300

    jeff 300 Well-Known Member

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    Yep buy what I'm selling and you can do what i do no practice needed. Just buy it and do it that eze.
     
  7. winmag

    winmag Well-Known Member

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    I just reviewed much of that same information in a recent P.M. :D.
    I absolutely love BOTW, but Im not a 7mm fan nor do I shoot Berger bullets or own a Gunwerks rifle, or a Huskemaw scope. But I can respect the intimate knowledge required of ones own setup, (especially when you have to talk a trigger dummy into understanding exactly what your trying to get them to do). Who knows, maybe they have a different turret for every show at different altitude, and aptmospheric conditions. Then again maybe not, maybe they just realy know thier own equipment, and are very very good at reading wind, and shooting conditions, and calculating the proper hold with the fixed reticle, or maybe a combo of both, and talking the trigger puller thru it.

    I too dont care for the comparison of ideal bullet for the 7mm vs not ideal for the big 30, but what we have to understand is that to appeal to a wider audience, for the "anyone can do it factor" to boost sales, they choose the 7mm over the much better for long range 338. Why? I would guess that the 338 cal scares some people.
    The B/C for the 7mm Berger is a bit higher due to the nose being perportionally skinnier than the 30 cal, eventhough the S/D is almost identicle in ideal bullet for both cal. comparison ( as Im sure you already know) So to make thier product look like the best, they go with the 7mm.
    I much prefer, and agree with your earlier comparison as the bigger cartrige and bullet. But for numbers on paper the 7mm makes thier product look cooler...........
    Plus Berger already had a very good L/R bullet for the 7mm on the market, where as the big 338, 300gr is pretty new.......hows that goin anyhow? Havent hered in a while.
    The show is as much an infomercial for thier products as it is a hunting show, wich is incredibly anoying, but Im hopelessly addicted to it. At least it promotes Long Range, not just watching a feeder from 100 yards in a box or tree (Tecomante high fence stuff), we see alot of that on tv already:D. I Just hit the mute button when theyre not showing the hunt, or shooting part.
    I also just got talked out of the CDS turrets, thru much research, for my VX-III and went with the M-1 turrets for the Long range stuff, and a B/C reticle for the close stuff, when I sent it in to the custom shop for the same reasons you mentioned about the pre set dials, and windage in the reticle.
    Ive shot with the Huskemaw before, It worked as advertised, but its realy not my style. Good scope for some folks, and thier application, & not so good for others for thier application.
    Eventhough our opinions differ on what the "best" system is, or way of doing things is different, I will continue to wach thier show, cause I like the show, and like the promotion of Long range hunting. But I will also continue to use the mute button for the infomercial part:D. Its just not my style, and it drives me nutts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  8. tnshooter111

    tnshooter111 Well-Known Member

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    I do like the show but
    What I don't understand is they preach dialing up your turret insted of using a drop recticle. but then tell you its easer and faster to hold for wind with the Huskemaw rectical. So why would you not just get a scope that has the custom drop built into the scope with marks for 10 to 20 wind. This way if the animal takes a few steps closer or further away you could just hold a little higher or lower. If not you would have to re range and dial the turret in again.
    My hunting situation is noting like theres. They never seemed to be rushed for time. Where I hunt its not possible to set and watch the animal for hours on end. I may only see and have a shot at the animal for minute or two. This doesn't leave time to range, then calculate wind and dial the turret up just to see the animal take a few steps and then have to do everything all over again.
    Just my 2 cents.
     
  9. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    Why I only Use MOA and USO builds all of my scopes the same way-----here is the table I use for the Warp 7:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  10. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Advertising dollars and overhype of there products is what brings us the shows. Just like gunsmiths overhype of there proprietary rounds. It sells new guys to the sport who do not realize there are many other choices, many times far better choices. Most guys with any kind of experience just watch the shows for the hunting and tune out the BS. Just like here on the forum. Experienced guys tune in to see what's going on and tune out all the popular cartridge hype that could be duplicated or exceeded most times by standard rifles and cartridges off the shelf. New guys just got to spend money and learn the truth I guess.

    I quit watching BOTW because I thought they went overboard hyping there product lines and giving misinformation to sell there product. I prefer shows that subtly represent there sponsors and do not spend half the show spewing inaccurate claims that what they do is best.

    For the record: BOTW is responsible for more wounded and lost elk than anything I have ever seen. The 7mm rem mag and 168 grain Berger bullet combination in particular are responsible now for more lost elk than anything I have ever witnessed in all my years of hunting. Please new guys do not get caught up in this one! Please get an elk rifle and elk bullets. Bears and other scavengers hope the show runs 24 hours a day though. I don't know if it is all the new guys get this and immediately think they can kill elk at 1000 yards or what. But the numbers are stagering for whatever reason. I shoot 7mms and some like my 7mm gibbs and 7mm jrs are basically the same as the 7mm rem mag. I know I can kill elk with those with propr bullets and shot placement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  11. winmag

    winmag Well-Known Member

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    :D:DI just got my (!) in a ringer for saying very simmilar things about it (with a bit different phrasing) on another thread:D:D. Look out LTLR, they will come after you with a vengance, and treat you like public enemy number one, cause they saw it, and hered it on BOTW...... hahahahahahaha:D

    Now Ill admit I love the show, and what it promotes- long range hunting- not nesicarily thier products-, and Ive seen some great marksmanship on there, but for my needs and hunting style, Im not into what theyre selling, so I use my mute button alot durring thier show.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  12. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Winmag on this, I watch BOTW or any LRH show and enjoy the entertainment factor.
    I've had several guys, in amazement tell me that a 7mag smokes a 300RUM and they gotta get one to seriously kill elk, all but one guy listened to facts like running the numbers on a 300RUM pounding out a 200+gr bullet with a decent BC, comparing a high BC bullet to a low BC bullet like that is a shameless attempt to jerk peoples chain. The system seems to work in it's effective range, one guy I work with drank the cool-aid and so I've got my hands on one BOTW setup a little and it does work, not to the range and conditions I can dialing current conditions like most of use do. Thank God it is such an over price system or they would be twice as many guys laying down a hail of fire from there 7mm's.
    Love the show not the propaganda!!!!
     
  13. happylilcuss

    happylilcuss Well-Known Member

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    Im with LTLR on this one. I have witnessed it first hand with clients in the field. I have heard the BOTW kool-aide propaganda around the lodge table and it really is funny how people buy into it just because they saw it on tv or read it on the net. What I tell all my clients when asked what is the "Best" rifle for elk or deer is: The one your not scared of and the one you shoot the best. However with that said I will never allow a client to take a shot that he doesnt have the gun for and that I dont think he has a VERY high chance of making. When I get clients quoting rhetoric from tv and the net and have no way of backing it up with hard facts I pull the reins way in.

    I like hearing promotion and acceptance of LRH however I dont like how BOTW does it. However this is the USA and free enterprise and if I dont like it then I should promote my own show and compete with them and do it different. Right?
     
  14. BMcKell

    BMcKell Well-Known Member

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    I too watched the same show. My favorite part was when they said their turrets are customized for the conditions and then showed a Leupold MOA turret and said this one is just a one size fits all turret. I thought their whole selling point was one size fits all. I would feel like an Ahole if I had to get up and talk a bunch of crap but whatever makes a paycheck.