Berger VLD load testing: 100 yds or 200 yds to stabilize

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by jhibbard24, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. jhibbard24

    jhibbard24 Well-Known Member

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    I've heard that VLDs won't quite stabilize by the time that it reaches 100 yds. therefore it is better to shoot them at 200 yds. for load development testing. i've had bergers punch some nice, tight ragged 5 shot holes at a 100 yds before. Whats your opinion. (Barrel twist is 1-10)

    Working on some .300 WSM loads and the 190 VLD hunting bullet using both Superformance powder and RE-17 (trying to get around 3000 fps). The re-17 is looking more consistent and promising but still not quite as tight of groups that i'd like to see.
     
  2. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    My stand point is loads should always be tested at a minimum of 200 yards with anything more being better. Regardless of the bullet used!
     

  3. jhibbard24

    jhibbard24 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that 200 yds is great for testing but i also believe that there are larger margins for errors at that distance ie. heartbeats, wind, etc. Just trying to figure out if the bullet myth of it not shooting as good at 100 vs. 200 is true...
     
  4. TikkaShooters

    TikkaShooters Official LRH Sponsor

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    I recently experienced this when loading some Berger vlds and Matrix vlds.

    My groups at 100 were worse than my groups at 200. In my mind that solidifies the fact that a bullet may need to "fall asleep"

    The guns were my 1:8 223 that I'm working on for ftr. The other was my 270 wsm. Both displayed the same results.

    I use rl17 in my wsm and get excellent accuracy with low sd/es numbers at all temperatures.
     
  5. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    I here what you saying about human error, thats why one group is not good enough, you need to shoot multiple groups on diffrent days and in diffrent conditions. This is the only way to validate that you rifle and you are shooting to you potential.
     
  6. TikkaShooters

    TikkaShooters Official LRH Sponsor

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    Great point! When I was doing load development for the same 223 referenced above, I had a load that shot 5 rounds into .11 inches. I was floored! and promptly spent the next month trying to shoot that group with that combo again.

    I had to take a step back and realize that I had other loads shooting much more consistently in the .2's and the load I was chasing averaged in the .3's with the random group in the .1's.

    Ultimately, the load that shoots consistently in a variety of conditions is the winner.

    Human error does play a role which is why your handloads need to be as perfect and consistent as possible so when you do shoot a bad group, you can look at yourself for improvement.

    My .02 :D
     
  7. dodgefreak8

    dodgefreak8 Well-Known Member

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    Please excuse this amateur question but how would any kind of unstable flight between 0 and 100 yards not cause accuracy issues at further distances?? I don't understand how any degree of bullet wobble is predictable. I would think that would throw accuracy off at all ranges
     
  8. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    You ever throw a foot ball that starts out on the right path but its all wobble and then it settles into a perfect spiral? It works like that
     
  9. TikkaShooters

    TikkaShooters Official LRH Sponsor

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    That's a great question! Not an amateur one!

    When dealing with anything that flies (airplanes, rockets, and bullets) there are two drag forces being place on the object: Induced drag and parasitic drag.

    Induced drag is the resistance the object faces when pushing against the atmosphere as it pushes through it.

    Parasitic drag is like the turbulence you see in the water behind a boat. It swirls the air back at the projectile and disrupts its flight creating drag. These swirls are one of the reasons airplanes have tips on their wings. It breaks up the swirl and improves lift.

    These forces are what must be overcome for successful flight. We have all seen some really cool designs the military and innovators have come up with making objects more aerodynamic.

    In the case of a long vld bullet, induced drag is minimal because of the shape of the ogive.

    Here is the theory behind the bullet going to sleep:

    Between the forces of the propellent exiting the muzzle (the importance of a proper crown), the bullet piercing the atmosphere when leaving the muzzle, and the parasitic drag produced by a long projectile piercing said atmosphere, the bullet is a little unstable from all these forces.

    A well made bullet that has a concentric jacket will spin and stabilize itself like a gyroscope once these effects are reduced by distancing itself from the muzzle.

    Not to belabor the point of having a concentric jacket, but... the bullet is spinning so fast that as long as the jacket is concentric, the bullet will spin around its center of mass.

    In the case of long, heavy vld bullets, this creates a very stable projectile.

    The reason you could see issues at 100 yards is because of how fast everything is happening. It could take a quarter of a second for everything above to transpire. If 100 yards comes in a tenth of a second, then you would still see a little stability issues.

    Clear as mud?
     
  10. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    I like my awnser better but I learned a little from yours thanks.:D
     
  11. jhibbard24

    jhibbard24 Well-Known Member

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    I like the football analysis... but the scientific view is helpful. Wish Brian Litz would throw a little input in on the subject, he would know about best outta anyone. i guess when i get a good load shooting at 100 i'll see if it shoots better or the same at 200
     
  12. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    I don't waste many bullets or other compoenents at 100 yards. Take it to 200 or even 300 to work up and fine tune loads. When I get a 1/2 moa load at 300 I take it on out and it usually stays 1/2 moa to way out there. I have learned over the years that long high BC bullets at 100 yards are a waste of time and $$. I prefer to shoot them at distances that will tell me the true story.

    Jeff
     
  13. TikkaShooters

    TikkaShooters Official LRH Sponsor

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    I guess everyone here now knows how much of a geek I really am :rolleyes:

    Oh well... this geek likes to shoot:D
     
  14. BryanLitz

    BryanLitz <b>Official LRH Sponsor</b>

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    Here's my explanation with a video to demonstrate the dynamics:

    epswerve

    -Bryan