Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

[woods]

From a previous post on another forum:

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Some questions from woods:

Would the die have any advantage if you are not having any problem chambering reloaded rounds?
Sooner or later you will have trouble getting your belted magnum handloads to chamber. It's just a matter of time. Another sypmtom you may encounter is a "fail to extract". This is caused by jamming an excessively wide handload into a tapered chamber. (works just like a milling bit with a morse taper). I've seen a lot of these handloads that required a mallet to open the bolt. The Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die will also solve that problem.


Does the die do anything to alleviate the tendency of the belted magnums to develop case head separation and how does it do that?

No .... because 99% of case head separations are caused by excessive headspace. That's a completely different problem.


If your die sizes the whole case smaller everytime then doesn't that mean that the brass is "worked" more with each firing?

No. The Belted Magum Collet Resizing Die doesn't resize the whole case. It just resizes the pressure ring "just above the belt". It resizes to the SAAMI spec minimum dimension, and it is only required on cases that won't fit into the top of our die.


Why don't you make a collet for a regular (30-06 type case)? Doesn't the same situation at the pressure ring present itself?

There is no need for this type of extra resizing on non-belted calibers. Unlike cases like the 30-06, the belt on any belted case will limit the travel of any conventional FL resizing die.

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Here you clearly say that your die does nothing to alleviate case head separations, so I would assume that the use of your die is only to make cases that are hard to chamber, easier to chamber. So if I am reloading for 19 different guns that have belts and have never encountered the problem, would the die have any other uses that would justify their cost?

 

[Innovative]

Headspace separation is a separate issue caused only by excessive headspace. Our Digital Headspace Gauge solves that problem. Keep your headspace clearance at -.002" or less and inspect your cases, and you'll never see a headspace separation.

Our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die resizes the case just above the belt, and it ensures that your handloads will always chamber without requiring force. The top of this die also works as a chamber width gauge. It shows you when the "extra" resizing is needed. When it requires force to chamber a round, it puts real pressure on your bolt lugs. That's not good.

Eventually . . . . sooner or later . . . . everyone loading belted magnum calibers will notice tight fitting handloads. Some handloads will chamber with force, some won't chamber at all. The thing that confuses shooters about this symptom is that it never shows up until after a case is reloaded at least 2 or 3 times. Besides ensuring 100% reliable chambering, our die allows shooters to get about 5 times more case life . . . . and this one collet die works on almost all belted calibers. It pays for itself quickly.

- Innovative

 

[AJ Peacock]

...
Here you clearly say that your die does nothing to alleviate case head separations, so I would assume that the use of your die is only to make cases that are hard to chamber, easier to chamber. So if I am reloading for 19 different guns that have belts and have never encountered the problem, would the die have any other uses that would justify their cost?

Woods,

Once your belted magnum cases start getting tight to chamber, send them to me and I'll resize them with the collet die and use them some more. If you've never seen this problem, how many times are you reusing your brass before it gets recycled?

AJ

 

[kraky2]

I've actually seen this same phenomenon happen with some 30-06 cases. I had some sitting here that had been through one of my guns 5x's. They were still in good shape and a friend wanted to try one of my recipes in his '06. He didn't have any spare brass. I loaded up 5 rounds in that brass (thinking we'd toss em after our experiment) and we couldn't chamber them in his gun. These had been fl sized and after taking some measurements on this brass comparing to other brass that chambered like butter in his gun we found it was about .0005" thicker just up the rim....like what I've seen on belted mags. Never imagined it would happen on a non belted magnum but my experience with those had me looking in the right spot right away....BTW...that brass chambered in my gun like butter and shot great!

 

[woods]

Woods,

Once your belted magnum cases start getting tight to chamber, send them to me and I'll resize them with the collet die and use them some more. If you've never seen this problem, how many times are you reusing your brass before it gets recycled?

AJ

Hey AJ, I will reload a belted case 7 times and then develop a new set. Again, the reason I discard and start with new is NOT because they have become hard to chamber but because of the POSSIBILITY of a case head separation. Brass is much cheaper than guns or physical parts of my body. Even if I were to use the Innovative die I would still discard the cases after 7 firings because they do nothing to alleviate head clearance stretching on new cases or thinning at the web for any reason.


kraky, somewhere in the previous postings I have seen where the bulge is attributed to regular dies pushing brass toward the belt. But in your post you say you are getting the same thing in an unbelted case. How could that be? Could it be that bulges and such are a result of die and chamber internal dimensions? I have a 280AI that has a hard time chambering after the 4th round because of the bulge at the pressure ring. It is a direct result of a tight chamber and a Redding Body Die that is not small enough to size the pressure ring area. Eventually I will get Redding to make me one a bit smaller and I will be good to go. If Innovative actually made one of the collet thingies for an unbelted case I would buy one for that caliber to alleviate my one problem. I suspect if someone runs across a chambering problem occasionally then the cause may be similar. If you need it, buy it, but I don't understand why you would buy one before you know you need it. And if you did buy one, naturally you would use it just to prove how right you were.

 

[kraky2]

Woods...

I guess in my case with the '06 its just a case of not using brass from one gun to another. And, that in itself might be another reason to own one of the innovative dies. You can buy used brass, or pick up range brass, or sell brass to someone and be confident that you have returned it to near factory dimensions.
Re your idea with the slighlty smaller body die...might that not actually make the problem worse as it will push the brass down even more??

 

[Innovative]

Woods ........

When resized incorrectly, ANY rifle case (belted or not) can develope a bulge above the web. I've seen this quite often with custom chambers. Every case separation I've ever seen was caused by excessive headspace. As I've said a jillion times before, headspace is a separate issue. This appears to not be well understood by many shooters. (No implications here ... )

Have you ever noticed that case separations always happen just above the web? That's because this part of the case is weakened (and thinned) the most. Every time a case is fired, it stretches to fit the chamber. The problem gets worse as the shoulder continues to be pushed back too far. A case will eventually bulge at its weakest location during the reloading process. My website shows how our Digital Headspace Gauge solves the headspace problem. [VERY SIMPLE]

- Innovative

 

[woods]

Woods...

I guess in my case with the '06 its just a case of not using brass from one gun to another. And, that in itself might be another reason to own one of the innovative dies. You can buy used brass, or pick up range brass, or sell brass to someone and be confident that you have returned it to near factory dimensions.
Re your idea with the slighlty smaller body die...might that not actually make the problem worse as it will push the brass down even more??

Yeah, I guess I'll add those to the list

1. If I ever get belted cases that are hard to chamber because of the bulge above the belt
2. If I ever start switching belted brass from one gun to the other
3. If I ever start picking up belted range brass

then I MIGHT need the Innovative collet.

On my problem, the chamber is tight as chambered by Hart so that it only allows the brass to expand to the chamber dimensions. The Redding Body Die does not even size the brass at the pressure ring because the brass has not expanded out far enough to hit the body die. So the body die needs to have smaller internal dimensions along the case body so that it will contact the brass and size it a little smaller so it won't bind in the chamber.

 

[Innovative]

Woods .....

Re-read posts 24, 30 and 35. That should make everything pretty clear.

- Innovative

 

[woods]

Larry, I read those the first time and I am clear on everything. I understand completely how your die works and what they correct. I just haven't run into those problems yet. Perhaps if I pick up a few more than the 41 guns I reload for now and shoot more than the 3 or 4 thousand times a year I do, then I would run across the problem. Perhaps if I specified my next custom gun with a very tight chamber then I would have to have one because the regular dies did not have a small enough internal diameter.

Anyway, as I've said before, I wish you well in your endeavors and hold no ill will towards you or your company. However, until shown otherwise, I don't see where I need one of your dies. What would be a shame is if a new reloader was convinced that he had to have one of your dies and spend the money only to discover that he had something that stayed in the drawer because it was un-needed.

Thanks

 

[Innovative]

Woods .....

I agree. It's a shame when someone spends money needlessly when they could have saved it. (Especially in economic times like this.) That's not good for the shooting sport that we both support. It would also be a shame if our unique collet dies went out of stock to build another 6 month waiting list. It would be even worse if our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Dies were permanently discontinued, because it would cost shooters over $400. to build just one of them.

Most shooters are glad to see companies in our industry survive. You can tell which companies support our sport by calling (or emailing) for technical support. Most companies in the shooting industry are an outstanding example for other industries to follow. So far, I've personally helped over 3,000 customers, and never received a bad check from anyone. Our fellow shooters really are the best folks out there.

Our products are made by shooters - for shooters.

- Innovative

 

[mo]

Larry's dies do what he says they do. It works wonderfully. I have a Blaser, and after two firings, no matter how far I would run a full length down on brass it would still not chamber correctly. I bought one of Larry's dies, and it fixed the problem. Weaterby Brass is not cheap! It payed for it's self the first night.