Barrel Block info

Discussion in 'Gun Parts - Stocks, Barrels, Actions, etc.' started by wildcat, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys, I've been doing some reserch for some time regarding barrel blocks. I am currently building a new project with a Nesika Model L, 1.470 Diameter Action with a Krieger 30", 1.450 straight cylinder barrel. Some people say, " you need a barrel block", however, the majority of long range shooters, many gunsmiths, and action makers have informed me a barrel block is not needed if using a Large Diameter Custom Action.

    I spoke with both BAT and Nesika and this is the information I received; Nesika informed me their Nesika Model L, 1.470 diameter action will have no problem supporting a 30", 1.450 diameter barrel, and BAT informed me their BAT 8.5 M, 1.55 Diameter Action will have no probelem supporting a 30", 1.50 diameter barrel. I also spoke with Two highly regarded gunsmiths that informed me a barrel block would not be needed. One of the gunsmiths said, if the barrel was over 36's it might be useful

    I do understand that they provide more support, which is not a bad thing. However, I have heard some say a rifle with a large diameter barrel and barrel block will out shoot a rifle without a barrel block, I don't believe that. From all the information I have read, a barrel block is not needed on certain rifles with proper actions. I know they are used on rifles with Remington actions and large diamter barrels, and I can see why they may help in that case. Remington actions are not nearly in the same class, strength wise, as a large diameter custom actions.

    I truly believe some gunsmiths are not honest with their customers when it comes to this topic, so they can make extra cash. I believe it's just another way to get someone to spend extra money on a component that is not needed.

    Remember, I am not saying they don't work. However, I am saying from all the information I have read and the information givin to me by some top gunsmiths, they are not necessary on most projects with large diameter custom actions.

    I would like to hear what you guys have to say about this topic. It was very interesting to hear the comments from Nesika and BAT, and I thought you guys should know this before you spend extra money on a barrel block.

    Wildcat
     
  2. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    You are correct the action will support that size barrel and will be accurate assuming that its put togeter right.
    Now your using a 30" barrel thats 1.45" in diameter , now do you think that a barrel that is 24" in the same diameter would be stiffer? hell yea and a stiffer barrel will more than likely be more accurate after several shot.
    A barrel block is used to make the gun use a long barrel and make it stiffer while releaving all stress from the action and remaining barrel.

    I'm not gonna say that the barrel blocked gun will shoot better than the no blocked but I would say that the odds of the blocked gun shooting better than the no blocked gun are better.
     

  3. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of a barrel block, but by moving the anchor more to the middle of the rifle does this cause any problems with having TWO harmonics? One from the barrel that is floating and a Second from the action that is also floating.

    Not arguing, just asking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    edge.
     
  4. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Short fat barrels tend to shoot better than long ones is the belief in the BR community.

    A barrel block artifically shortens your barrel harmonics to the length extending out past the barrel block, thus giving you the short fat barrel in theory.

    Plus it allows you to hang big, long and heavy barrels on actions without any question of support as the action is free floated also.

    Experiments have shown that 9" is the optimum length for a barrel block and you want a split or two piece block for simplicity of changing barrels. jBruce Baer has done more work in this area than anyone else and he is considered the guru on these.

    BH
     
  5. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense, but wouldn't the action have some harmonics also?
    I suppose that the mass of the action is small in comparison to the barrel and barrel block so the vibrations may be insignificant.

    edge.
     
  6. 1doug

    1doug Well-Known Member

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    the 10 inch block makes your 30 inch barrel into a 20 inch barrel. the 30 inch barrel will have some droop in it. the block will cut some of the droop out.

    As far as action harmonics they are not an issue. In barrel harmonics the barrel is whipping as the bullet is traveling down the bore. the action is just hanging off the end of the block, and it harmonics are behind the bullet not causing any negative effects to the barrel harmonics.

    You need to ask yourself if you want the most accuracy you can get the easiest, or do you want avg accuracy thats hard to obtain? The barrel block would give you the most and easiest obtained accuracy.

    jm2cw

    d-a
     
  7. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    As I mentioned in my post, I am sure they do have there up side. However, I don't think there neccesary if using the correct custom action. Like I said, I think it's the gunsmiths responsibility to be honest with the customer and let them know if a barrel block is neccesary. As I mentioned, if your using a large diameter custom action, like Nesika or BAT, you wont need a barrel block.

    I wanted to make this post, because I've heard so many stories about guys getting talked into barrel blocks, and they were not neccesary. Make sure you do your homework when building a custom rifle, espicially the first timer. I admit, I would have easly been talked into a barrel block during my first custom rifle build. However, I had a very honest and well known gunsmith who informed me I did not need one if I was using a Large Diameter Nesika or BAT action. This gunsmith gave me valuable info during my first custom rifle build. I have learned a bunch since that time, and I want to make sure the first timer gets this info too.

    Nesika and BAT informed me there large diameter actions would have no problem handling large diamter barrels without barrel blocks. If you think I am making this up, just give them a call, and they will tell you the same thing they told me. Nesika and BAT make there large diameter actions for this exact reason. However, if your going to use a 40" or longer barrel, then you might want to see if a barrel block would be benificial.

    I just think there are a lot of gunsmiths out there trying to get people to spend money on equipment that is not needed. I have been swindled by a gunsmith before, so I know it happens. It is a long story, but I got taken for alot of money, because I did not know what to look for. I DO NOW!!

    Wildcat
     
  8. 308 nate

    308 nate Well-Known Member

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    Wildcat,

    [ QUOTE ]
    Make sure you do your homework when building a custom rifle, espicially the first timer. I admit, I would have easly been talked into a barrel block during my first custom rifle build. However, I had a very honest and well known gunsmith who informed me I did not need one if I was using a Large Diameter Nesika or BAT action. This gunsmith gave me valuable info during my first custom rifle build. I have learned a bunch since that time, and I want to make sure the first timer gets this info too.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I hate to say it , but I think you have been swindeled again....You don't need a Nesika or BAT action...what a waist of money, what you need to do is use a Stevens receiver, fully blueprinted and a barrel block with the action free floated behind the barrel block with only 21" of barrel hanging for a more rigid barrel, plus you will only have half the money stuck into the Stevens receiver,fully blueprinted with a barrel block than you would into a Nesika or BAT.

    my remark above is only to point out that you really need to be carefull about accusing someone of swindeling you. I am a smith and do my best to build rifles to my customers exact specs. I will say that everyones view of the perfect accurate rifle is different with some things the same.So if I was to recommend a rifle build to someone it may not be the way they may want it. I have literally spent hours with a single customer trying to help them with decisions with out making them for them.Do I get paid for this time? No, but it's what I love to do. I do not know your past experiance with the gunsmith that you say swindled you and maybe he did, but your comment about smiths just trying to reccomend things that aren't needed to make more money kinda put a bur under my saddle as there are a lot of things on custom rifles that are not needed to make them accurate but are there for self confidance,looks and functionality.

    I would like to clarify some things...
    when you buy a Nesika or BAT action, in my mind you are NOT wasting your money (my remark above was only to prove a point) as I am partial to smooth operating and precision parts. Are the custom actions neccessary to win a 1,000 yd. bench rest competition? Not neccessarily.

    I did build a rifle with a barrel block and a Savage receiver, similar to the one mentioned above. I will say I shot my only perfect one hole group at 100 yds. with it and 1/2 MOA at 1,000yds. was very do-able with good conditions.

    When using the Nesika large dia. action with that heavy of barrel make sure you have some good wide solid pillars and a good thick bed of epoxy under the action. Even though the action can take the weight the pillars and bedding can shift and start to crush if not done properly. I say this and I point out that the bedded in barrel block in the stock has much less crow bar effect than the barrel hanging fully off the receiver.

    This is your rifle build and With a precision minded gunsmith I am sure it will shoot very good.Is it how I would build a rifle? No. Mainly because I am not fond of straight cylinders. Is the way I build my rifles better than the way you build yours? Not neccessarily, But in my mind it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Wildcat,
    No offense was meant. Your rifle sounds like a fun project and enjoy!

    FWIW,
    Nate
     
  9. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    308 Nate, I did get swindled buy a gunsmith and that's the bottom line. I had work done to a rifle, and years later another well known gunsmith showed me what was supposed to be done to the rifle was never completed. Please, don't tell me I can't accuse a gunsmith of swindling me when it happen to me! The point is there are gunsmiths out there who will swindle you. Most gunsmiths our very honest, however, we all know the bad ones are out there just like in any profession. Your analogy about being swindled doesn't make since. I wanted a Nesika Action for the quality, diameter, and re-sale value. No one talked me into it or told me if I did not use a custom action my rifle would not be accurate.

    This post was about barrel blocks and if they are neccesary on rifles with large diameter custom actions. The bottom line is they are, for the most part, not needed if you have a large diameter custom action like a Nesika or BAT.

    I apologize if I offended any gunsmiths on this site, however, I do not apologize for saying there are gunsmiths out there who are not honest and will take advantage of you if they can. I know they're out there because it happen to me. When I said do your homework, that means researching your equipment and your gunsmith.

    Please, lets get back to the barrel block coversation.


    Wildcat
     
  10. 308 nate

    308 nate Well-Known Member

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    Wildcat,
    I appologize for misunderstanding you. I understood you were saying that if a gunsmith recommended a barrel block while using a large dia. action he was swindeling you. I do not believe that to be the case. Now if a gunsmith said it would shoot like crap unless you did use a barrel block,he would then be misinforming you...at least with a 30" barrel.

    Back to the barrel block, I believe there would be some benifits to using a barrel block with a large dia. action and your super heavy barrel. Weather it would be worth the extra cost while using a 30" barrel would be up to the buyer.

    I am sorry you did not understand my analogy. I apologize I am not very good at explaining things. My point was that a gunsmith is not swindeling you if he recommends a modification you think is not necessary. He is swindeling you when he lies to you and says he's doing something and then doesn't complete it and charges you for it. and you are right there are scammers. my post way just to give a little balance to yours. Again I am sorry for misunderstanding.

    and by all means lets get back to the barrel block disscusion.

    308nate

    P.S my take on the using a barrel block with a large dia. action and a heavy 30" barrel. The receiver can handle it without any problem as well as 40" barrel. BUt I also believe the barrel block does offer benefits to the above with definately more benefit to the 40" barrel. 1~ it reduces the leverage from the action to the bedding.I feel my aluminum blocks also work as a heat sink...some will argue. I only have my experiance with the barrel blocks I build. I am in the process of building a 10" clamp style liquid cooled barrel block, in fact it is getting close to completion. It will be suporting a 36" barrel chambered in 7mm ultra. The liquid cooled block is probably not needed, but where would we be today if they said 100 years ago that we figured out everything new so we aren't going to try anything new cause' there couldn't posssibly be any benifit...... I will definately post result once this project is completed.
     
  11. tylercleary

    tylercleary Well-Known Member

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    Wildcat,
    Something was bothering me about your post and I finally put me finger on it: It’s your choice of verb. To swindle means that someone cheated you some way in the business transaction. What I’m reading in your post is you may not have received what you wanted - but it doesn’t necessarily mean that you were swindled. Please explain your grievance a little more. What I’m gathering from this post is that you ordered a rifle and it didn’t perform as you expected (let me know if I’m wrong). He offered some suggestions and it ended up not being a one hole rifle.

    I am assuming this is the case and would like to make an analogy (it may help):

    You’re in the market for a race car, so you go to Race Cars Unlimited (any place). Giorgio, behind the counter says he can build a race car that will blow the doors off of the competition. So you say… Okay George, built me the best car you can! Your car runs like a bat out of hell but you don’t win a single race? Were you swindled or did the car not live up to his or your expectations?

    I don’t want to put words in your mouth or belittle your experience, but you have two reputable smiths and one… two… three… (Maybe three) other experienced guru’s saying that barrel blocks can be beneficial, yet you’re dismissing them and the guy who originally told you that before?

    Wildcat, take a look at the posts on barrel makers... for every ten positive posts there is one guy who had a horrible experience and “will never – ever – do business with that guy again”. What it the barrel maker, or was it the buyers expectations… or other components?


    Please tell us a little more about your experience and why a barrel block didn’t work for you.


    Respectfully,
    TAC
     
  12. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    308NATE, I agree, I am sure barrel blocks do help, and I mentioned that in my post. Your new water cooled block sounds interesting. Keep us posted.

    Wildcat
     
  13. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    TAC, this what happen to me with a certain gunsmith. I bought a Remington VLS in 6mm in 2000. I was just getting into shooting long range, and I wanted to have the rifle customized a bit. Remember, I was new to the idea of customizing firearms and did not know what to look for upon completion. I asked the gunsmith what he would recommend I have done to the rifle. He suggested the following;

    1. True and Square the Action.
    2. Lighten the trigger to around 1-1/2 to 2 pounds.
    3. Bed the stock.
    4. Crown the barrel.
    Total cost was around $450.00

    I picked up the rifle and took it to the range. It shot really well, so I was happy and did not think twice about anything. Well in 2003, I decided I wanted to build a new rifle. I decided to use this action for the project because it was supposed to have had already been trued and squared. I took it to my new gunsmith to have him do the work, and I explained to him what I had done to the action.

    Once he took it apart it was very apparent to him that the rifle was not even bedded. He than took the barrel off and looked at the action and the action hadn't even been worked on. The only thing that was done to the rifle was a trigger and crown job. I could not believe it, I was really pissed off. Anyhow, the gunsmith who did the work moved out of the area. I later found out other people had the same thing happen to them. Since that time, I have become pretty familiar with what to look for. Anyhow, that was my experience. I took the advice, of that gunsmith, and got taken.

    The point of the post was to inform those who are going to use a large diameter custom action like a Nesika or BAT, that a barrel block will not be needed. The Nesika and BAT will handle a large diameter barrel with no problem. I also wanted them to know, there are gunsmiths out there who will try to talk them into a piece of equipment that is not needed.

    I am sure barrel blocks can help a rifles performance. However, I don't think someone with a barrel block will out shoot someone who does not have one. I do realize that there are situations where a barrel block would need to be used. This post was focused on the fact that if you used a large diameter Nesika or BAT, a barrel block, in most cases would not be needed. Anyhow, this is a great debate.

    Wildcat
     
  14. Switchbarrel

    Switchbarrel Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    The point of the post was to inform those who are going to use a large diameter custom action like a Nesika or BAT, that a barrel block will not be needed. The Nesika and BAT will handle a large diameter barrel with no problem. I also wanted them to know, there are gunsmiths out there who will try to talk them into a piece of equipment that is not needed.

    I am sure barrel blocks can help a rifles performance. However, I don't think someone with a barrel block will out shoot someone who does not have one. I do realize that there are situations where a barrel block would need to be used. This post was focused on the fact that if you used a large diameter Nesika or BAT, a barrel block, in most cases would not be needed. Anyhow, this is a great debate.

    Wildcat

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I happen to have two 1.47" Nesika's w/30" barrels that measure 1.25" for about 9" then taper to .950". Neither has a barrel block but, the first inch and a half or so under the barrel is bedded.

    I also have a 2X10" BAT action with a 30X1.75" dia. barrel. That rifle does use a barrel block.

    All three chambered with the same reamer, the Nesika's use Lilja barrels, the BAT has a Kreiger. Not exactly an "apples to apples" comparison, but...Guess which one shoots the tightest groups. Yeah the barrel blocked rifle.

    You keep saying a barrel block is not needed with these larger actions. True, it's not a necessity, the action can handle the barrels weight. However, as others and even you mention yourself, there may be benefits to having a block. So, just because a gunsmith recommends one, doesn't mean he's trying to jack up the cost of your rifle for no reason other than to take you for more money. I spec'd out my own rifle and wanted the block before ever talking to anyone.

    Aftermarket heads, cam, intake, headers, etc. were not needed on my Z06 Corvette. But they made it a lot quicker and more fun to drive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


    -Rick

    PS- Newbie or not, you should've had the original gunsmith show you everything he did to your rifle. The lack of bedding should've been pretty obvious.