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338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200
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<blockquote data-quote="NFG" data-source="post: 278593" data-attributes="member: 17179"><p>I think I have a very open mind, you just don't see it, yet. I did this flame job for a reason. Many of my jobs have been solving problems of some sort, in many fields. I ask questions, present rebutals, get hard nosed and in your face specifically to cut through the usual rhetoric and usually for safety reasons. Directness isn't well received especially if tinged with a little color, and I have to try several ways sometimes to get what I want. By the way, Rob, the bolt head information was excellent work and I for one thank you, </p><p> </p><p>My getting "in your face" did glean me some information...I fully respect Fred's expertise and certainly do not ignore it. I was looking for that specific information or quote, asked for something like it specifically, but nothing was forthcoming. Fred didn't say what/where/how the lug setback happened, just that it happened and was probably tired as heck of the continuing questions. I understand now why the short response to my email. I was scratchin my head because I have conversed with him several times over many years.</p><p> </p><p>I know the extractor is Beryllium Copper and "maybe" should be made of steel, time will tell. I had no problem with the magnums I shot, 7mm, 300, 375 H&H and 416 Taylor, the same extractor has been through all those and well over 1000 rounds. The Rigby case seems to work OK so far but that, again, will take some time. It is also a simple matter to turn a few thou' off the rim if needed later, OR just to use Lapua brass which was designed for 20KPSI higher pressure anyway.</p><p> </p><p>And, Yes the pin was in the hole and was the same bolthead I started with way back when, with ALL the magnums. All I did was pull it out of the receiver and stack it on top of the mag box. The receiver I'm going to use is a newer one. I've done a bit of chopping and chewing on the "older" old one.</p><p> </p><p>I KNOW there is not a lot of support area in the receiver for the lug thrust, it doesn't take much more than a look inside one to see that, BUT,.</p><p> </p><p>I thought about this today while I was out ratting, came back and ran some simple area calculations, bolt lug area, case head area, Lapua 68KPSI pressures over that area just for my edification. </p><p> </p><p>There is no problem with the bolt lugs. Using steel shear data for mild steel at the lowest psi level of 47,5KPSI for the area of ONLY the lugs, not including the bolt handle area, the lugs could support 1.57 times the amount of pressure generated by the 68KPSI, using the bolt handle area the level increased to 1.82 times. I KNOW the bolthead steel has a MUCH higher shear rating than mild steel, so if it works with mild steel it will work with much better steel. Just a straight forward pressure/area calculation. Goto Varmint Al's for a REAL bolt stress analysis, and some good information.</p><p> </p><p>The problem is with the very small area of support at the upper and lower area inside of the receiver. When I looked at that a little harder, it dawned on me and I finally understood the whys of the problem. NO ONE mentioned that little bit of data and I missed it by looking too hard at other possibilities. Those two very small and thin cresents of steel and the small support area behind the bolt head are all you have between you and oblivion.</p><p> </p><p>BUT, again, no one was bothering with looking around, just defending the **** out of something they didn't really know anything about or didn't state directly, or read or heard something from some "authority". I guarantee it is hard to extract specific, exact information "nicely" sometimes. Mostly I see "opinions" without proof or empirical data to support it.</p><p> </p><p>And Fred was certainly right about the "fun thing". The 338 Lapua is definitely NOT for many. Not a lot of friends want to shoot any of my really BIG bores and don't EVEN trot out the 12GaFH.</p><p> </p><p>What I was attempting to present and didn't quite get across or wasn't understood because of the defensive posture AGAINST a "338 Lapua in a Savage", was several facts: (not the first time or the first forum either)</p><p> </p><p>You DON'T have to load to the 68KPSI Lapua pressures ALL the time.</p><p> </p><p>You DON'T have to load to the 3.8" factory COAL.</p><p> </p><p>The Savage receiver doesn't need much in the way of 'smithing.</p><p> </p><p>And there are many ways to de-pelage a mink.</p><p> </p><p>You DO have lots of latitude when it comes to COAL, pressures, powders,etc., but many DON'T or won't experiment or understand how to. I used to make people totally crazy when I was benchresting, had a nice group going and started shooting flies off the target or started shooting some loads I wanted to check out. Never could understand that, THEY got the tin cup and the pats on the fanny. But I got the information I wanted, which was much more valuable to me.</p><p> </p><p>I ran some 338 Lapua case data through my "Load from a Disk" and found I could get a 300 grain Sierra MK going at 2700 fs at about the same pressure as a 300 WM, 54KCUP/64KPSI, at 3.6" COAL, and by single loading, 2800 fs at 3.8" COAL, and almost 2900 fs at 4.0" COAL. Or a 250 gr Sierra MK at almost 3000 fs at the same pressures, at 3.6" COAL, all with a 26" barrel with Retumbo powder. That is very close to the Lapua loads I found in several manuals and online. Well within the capability of the Savage. </p><p> </p><p>If I wanted to actually build a 338 cal rifle using a Lapua case(notice I DIDN'T say the "other" politically incorrect phrase) on the Savage LA and stay withing the 64KPSI limit, I would go to a 32" barrel, load out to 4.0", single load and get 3200fs or pretty close. And <strong><em><span style="color: black"><u>If</u></span></em></strong> I were doing such a thing I WOULD use a 32" bbl otherwise why bother, a RUM or EDGE would work just as well, and a 338 WMis much cheaper yet and equally as effective. My 338-06 isn't all that far behind and it has killed everything I ever pointed it at.</p><p> </p><p>This information is what was missed by most people because they depend on reloading manuals, I think, and they don't quite understand all the nuances of reloading and wildcatting and get defensive, defending a position to the hilt almost blindly and don't know or forget that there are MANY ways to get to where you want to go without going by the "usual" methods.</p><p> </p><p>Geargrinder: Actually the RUM case head is 17.5% smaller using the AREA size. The % of reduction would be the AREA of the heads A=Pi x radius squared= 0.224/0.2715 = .825 -(-1) = .175 x 100 = 17.5% and not necessarily. If your concern is staying within a specific pressure on the bolthead then it would be one way to think about it and a safe way to establish some sort of pressure ratio, but the RUM's MAP is already 4KPSI below the Lapua, same as the 300 WM's. Cutting the Lapua pressure by 17.5% would be putting the RUM pressure around 56 KPSI. Nothing to sneeze at but quite a ways below MAP.</p><p> </p><p>Yeah and it doesn't mean it shouldn't.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> I had one of those "Things" that would do the same, VERY scary when you got past 75. Hahahahahaha</p><p> </p><p>The concern is not always the lugs. In the Savage case and also on the the other receivers of similar design is the steel support cresents where the lugs abutt. You have to look at the lug support areas to see if they are large enough to handle the added pressure IF you want to push to 68KPSI. You DON'T need to push if you feel it is unsafe, but you can STILL have a 338 cal rifle, use the Lapua case and use a Savage action, "but I didn't say that and I was never here". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p> </p><p>I understand now why Savage went to the larger diameter barrel shank. I see now that the lugs and barrel were not the problem. By going to a larger barrel shank and keeping the rest of the dimensions OEM, Savage in effect increased the size of the abutments and that small increase was all that was required to solve the problem. </p><p> </p><p>It would have been nice for someone with that information would have said "Wake up Jack, THIS is the problem" then explained it to me. And it would have been even nicer if I had opened my eyes a little wider and saw it for myself sooner.</p><p> </p><p>The one very good thing about conversation is exploring all the little nuances and getting more opinions. The old adage about "MO' HEADS, MO'BETTA" certainly fits in this case, but you gotta be open to all possibilities, work them through using good data, get tough with the questions and answers, have a thick skin and don't defend a position to the death. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p> </p><p>Jcoop: I think it reduces to the fact that some people always ask "why you do dat" and some say"why not, Cher, it be good" and go ahead and try. It's not a right or wrong thing. I have friends that continually shake their head at some of my projects. I just do many things for my own pleasure and my own reasons. Many very experienced old timey 'smiths let me look over their shoulders, listen to their conversations and let me touch now and then. I owe it to them to pass along whatever I can. Most of the time it is pretty hard getting past the wall.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /></p><p> </p><p>I 'polojeyes for bean 1 o' dooes geyz. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p> </p><p>Luck on your projects.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NFG, post: 278593, member: 17179"] I think I have a very open mind, you just don't see it, yet. I did this flame job for a reason. Many of my jobs have been solving problems of some sort, in many fields. I ask questions, present rebutals, get hard nosed and in your face specifically to cut through the usual rhetoric and usually for safety reasons. Directness isn't well received especially if tinged with a little color, and I have to try several ways sometimes to get what I want. By the way, Rob, the bolt head information was excellent work and I for one thank you, My getting "in your face" did glean me some information...I fully respect Fred's expertise and certainly do not ignore it. I was looking for that specific information or quote, asked for something like it specifically, but nothing was forthcoming. Fred didn't say what/where/how the lug setback happened, just that it happened and was probably tired as heck of the continuing questions. I understand now why the short response to my email. I was scratchin my head because I have conversed with him several times over many years. I know the extractor is Beryllium Copper and "maybe" should be made of steel, time will tell. I had no problem with the magnums I shot, 7mm, 300, 375 H&H and 416 Taylor, the same extractor has been through all those and well over 1000 rounds. The Rigby case seems to work OK so far but that, again, will take some time. It is also a simple matter to turn a few thou' off the rim if needed later, OR just to use Lapua brass which was designed for 20KPSI higher pressure anyway. And, Yes the pin was in the hole and was the same bolthead I started with way back when, with ALL the magnums. All I did was pull it out of the receiver and stack it on top of the mag box. The receiver I'm going to use is a newer one. I've done a bit of chopping and chewing on the "older" old one. I KNOW there is not a lot of support area in the receiver for the lug thrust, it doesn't take much more than a look inside one to see that, BUT,. I thought about this today while I was out ratting, came back and ran some simple area calculations, bolt lug area, case head area, Lapua 68KPSI pressures over that area just for my edification. There is no problem with the bolt lugs. Using steel shear data for mild steel at the lowest psi level of 47,5KPSI for the area of ONLY the lugs, not including the bolt handle area, the lugs could support 1.57 times the amount of pressure generated by the 68KPSI, using the bolt handle area the level increased to 1.82 times. I KNOW the bolthead steel has a MUCH higher shear rating than mild steel, so if it works with mild steel it will work with much better steel. Just a straight forward pressure/area calculation. Goto Varmint Al's for a REAL bolt stress analysis, and some good information. The problem is with the very small area of support at the upper and lower area inside of the receiver. When I looked at that a little harder, it dawned on me and I finally understood the whys of the problem. NO ONE mentioned that little bit of data and I missed it by looking too hard at other possibilities. Those two very small and thin cresents of steel and the small support area behind the bolt head are all you have between you and oblivion. BUT, again, no one was bothering with looking around, just defending the **** out of something they didn't really know anything about or didn't state directly, or read or heard something from some "authority". I guarantee it is hard to extract specific, exact information "nicely" sometimes. Mostly I see "opinions" without proof or empirical data to support it. And Fred was certainly right about the "fun thing". The 338 Lapua is definitely NOT for many. Not a lot of friends want to shoot any of my really BIG bores and don't EVEN trot out the 12GaFH. What I was attempting to present and didn't quite get across or wasn't understood because of the defensive posture AGAINST a "338 Lapua in a Savage", was several facts: (not the first time or the first forum either) You DON'T have to load to the 68KPSI Lapua pressures ALL the time. You DON'T have to load to the 3.8" factory COAL. The Savage receiver doesn't need much in the way of 'smithing. And there are many ways to de-pelage a mink. You DO have lots of latitude when it comes to COAL, pressures, powders,etc., but many DON'T or won't experiment or understand how to. I used to make people totally crazy when I was benchresting, had a nice group going and started shooting flies off the target or started shooting some loads I wanted to check out. Never could understand that, THEY got the tin cup and the pats on the fanny. But I got the information I wanted, which was much more valuable to me. I ran some 338 Lapua case data through my "Load from a Disk" and found I could get a 300 grain Sierra MK going at 2700 fs at about the same pressure as a 300 WM, 54KCUP/64KPSI, at 3.6" COAL, and by single loading, 2800 fs at 3.8" COAL, and almost 2900 fs at 4.0" COAL. Or a 250 gr Sierra MK at almost 3000 fs at the same pressures, at 3.6" COAL, all with a 26" barrel with Retumbo powder. That is very close to the Lapua loads I found in several manuals and online. Well within the capability of the Savage. If I wanted to actually build a 338 cal rifle using a Lapua case(notice I DIDN'T say the "other" politically incorrect phrase) on the Savage LA and stay withing the 64KPSI limit, I would go to a 32" barrel, load out to 4.0", single load and get 3200fs or pretty close. And [B][I][COLOR=black][U]If[/U][/COLOR][/I][/B] I were doing such a thing I WOULD use a 32" bbl otherwise why bother, a RUM or EDGE would work just as well, and a 338 WMis much cheaper yet and equally as effective. My 338-06 isn't all that far behind and it has killed everything I ever pointed it at. This information is what was missed by most people because they depend on reloading manuals, I think, and they don't quite understand all the nuances of reloading and wildcatting and get defensive, defending a position to the hilt almost blindly and don't know or forget that there are MANY ways to get to where you want to go without going by the "usual" methods. Geargrinder: Actually the RUM case head is 17.5% smaller using the AREA size. The % of reduction would be the AREA of the heads A=Pi x radius squared= 0.224/0.2715 = .825 -(-1) = .175 x 100 = 17.5% and not necessarily. If your concern is staying within a specific pressure on the bolthead then it would be one way to think about it and a safe way to establish some sort of pressure ratio, but the RUM's MAP is already 4KPSI below the Lapua, same as the 300 WM's. Cutting the Lapua pressure by 17.5% would be putting the RUM pressure around 56 KPSI. Nothing to sneeze at but quite a ways below MAP. Yeah and it doesn't mean it shouldn't.:D I had one of those "Things" that would do the same, VERY scary when you got past 75. Hahahahahaha The concern is not always the lugs. In the Savage case and also on the the other receivers of similar design is the steel support cresents where the lugs abutt. You have to look at the lug support areas to see if they are large enough to handle the added pressure IF you want to push to 68KPSI. You DON'T need to push if you feel it is unsafe, but you can STILL have a 338 cal rifle, use the Lapua case and use a Savage action, "but I didn't say that and I was never here". :D I understand now why Savage went to the larger diameter barrel shank. I see now that the lugs and barrel were not the problem. By going to a larger barrel shank and keeping the rest of the dimensions OEM, Savage in effect increased the size of the abutments and that small increase was all that was required to solve the problem. It would have been nice for someone with that information would have said "Wake up Jack, THIS is the problem" then explained it to me. And it would have been even nicer if I had opened my eyes a little wider and saw it for myself sooner. The one very good thing about conversation is exploring all the little nuances and getting more opinions. The old adage about "MO' HEADS, MO'BETTA" certainly fits in this case, but you gotta be open to all possibilities, work them through using good data, get tough with the questions and answers, have a thick skin and don't defend a position to the death. :cool::D Jcoop: I think it reduces to the fact that some people always ask "why you do dat" and some say"why not, Cher, it be good" and go ahead and try. It's not a right or wrong thing. I have friends that continually shake their head at some of my projects. I just do many things for my own pleasure and my own reasons. Many very experienced old timey 'smiths let me look over their shoulders, listen to their conversations and let me touch now and then. I owe it to them to pass along whatever I can. Most of the time it is pretty hard getting past the wall.:cool: I 'polojeyes for bean 1 o' dooes geyz. :D Luck on your projects. [/QUOTE]
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