338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by mtthewj, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. mtthewj

    mtthewj Member

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    hi Guy's,
    Looking for some advice on using a Std (Small shank) barrel and action for a .338 lapua, I recently purchased a Stevens 200 in 300 win mag after being told by savage That all magnum actions used the Large thread, after removing the barrel i realized that was not true ,as mine has a Small ahank thread. I have talked to a couple of barrel mfgs and they say they have built both types, I have checked presssure ratings on the lapua (61000) and the 300 win mag (64000) So my thinking is the lapua being slightly under the 300's rated pressure it should be ok . Any advice or insight greatly appreciatted.
    One other thing, i have also asked to have a Rem 700 rebarreled in the .338 lapua (older 30-06) and have been told that is no problem for the 700 action , it too has a Similar size barrel thread 1.062 X 16TPI compared to the Savage 1.062x20TPI so if it's ok in a Remmie with similar size threads wouldnt it be ok in a savage?

    Thanks in advance

    Matt
     
  2. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    My Savage 110 7mm Rem mag is a standard shank and am doing a rebuild also. I am not 100% sure what caliber I am going to choose. What kind of stock are you using for your new rifle. If you are building a heavy hitter I would recommend using something better than savages tupperware stocks.

     

  3. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    1 more thing if memory serves the 338 Lapua requires a .585 boltface and I BELIEVE the savages only go up to .540 The bolt face may have to be machined open but I don't know how that will effect the structural integrity of the boltface to keep the firearm safe
     
  4. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    This may be a great help to ya


    Short actions with a bolt face .Dia of .384 +/-
    17 Rem, 204 Ruger. 222 Rimingtion, and 223 Rem.

    Short actions with a bolt face .Dia of .470 +/-
    225 Winchester, 22/250 Remingtion, 6mm Norma BR, 243 Win, 250 Savage, 260 Rem,
    6.5/284 Norma, 7/08 Rem, 284 win, 300 Savage, 308 Win, 338 Federal, 35 Rem, and
    the 358 Winchester.

    Short actions with a bolt face .Dia of .540+/-
    223 WSSM, 243 WSSM, 25 WSSM, 7mm Rem saum, 7mm WSM, 300 Rem saum, 300
    WSM, 325 WSM, and the 350 Rem Mag.

    Long actions with a bolt face .DIA of .470 +/-
    220 Swift, 6mm Rem, 240 Weatherby Mag, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Rem, 257 Weatherby ,
    6.5x55 Swedish, 270 Win, 7x57 Mauser, 7x64 Brenneke, 280 Rem, 30/06 Springfield,
    8mm Mauser, 338/06 A Square, and the 35 Whelen.

    Long actions with a bolt face .Dia of .540 +/-
    264 Win Mag, 270 weatherby Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Weatherby Mag, 7 STW,
    7mm Rem Ultra Mag, 300 H & H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby Mag, 300 RUM, 303 Brit,
    8mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, 340 Weatherby Mag, 338 RUM, 375 H & H, 375 Weatherby,
    375 RUM, 416 Rem Mag, 458 Win Mag, and the 458 Lott.

    Long actions with a bolt face .Dia of .585 +/-
    30/378 Weatherby, 338 Lapua, 338/378 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby mag, 416 Rigby,
    416 Weatherby Mag, 460 Weatherby Mag, and the 470 Nitro Express.
     
  5. geargrinder

    geargrinder Well-Known Member

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    IMHO...Build a 338RUM or 338Edge on the Savage.

    Getting a 338Lapua to work in the Savage isn't worth the effort.

    Suprising that Savage said that all magnums were large shank. Current production, only the short magnums are large.
     
  6. mtthewj

    mtthewj Member

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    one of the reasons I am considering the Lapua is because i already have a 7mm rum, 338rum and a 300 rum, thought something different would be nice. What other problems would i encounter using the savage? I have already Machined the boltface, only had to bore it .020 per side, total of .040 to get the correct dimension. I am going to be using an aftermarket stock, most likely it will be an HS Precision . Barrel I am looking at will be slightly heavier than sendero/Varmint and 28 Inch and be threaded for a Brake, Trigger will be a Timney.
     
  7. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    I had a nice long response then my internet crapped out so heres the short version

    Kevin at stockade gun stocks makes stocks SPECIFICALLY for savages. Very knowledgeable but str8 and to the point and BLUNT. I have 2 of his stocks and couldnt be happier. Get a heavy duty recoil lug either from SSS or from Kevin. SSS's trigger is FANTASTIC I have 1 and will be getting another for my build. Here are both of their websites . If you decide on the Stockade which I KNOW you willlove. Tell Kevin NOT to put an Uncle Mikes recoil pad on the stock, get a grind to fit Pachmayr or Magnum Limbsavergun)

    Stockade Gun Stocks - specializing in custom rifles

    Sharp Shooter Supply - The Savage Specialists
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  8. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    Matthew do you reload? I have been toying with getting into the hobby and building another work bench specifically for that. Have you considered the 375 RUM something about that cartridge intrigues me.
     
  9. mtthewj

    mtthewj Member

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    Yes, I reload for all my Centerfire rifle, it's A lot cheaper than factory loads and i have found with a little load work the accuracy is much better than the factory stuff. I have also considered the .375 RUM, it's the last caliber in the series i dont have but i will probablty buy that one in something i can hunt with like a stainless BDL or XCR
     
  10. Rustystud

    Rustystud Well-Known Member

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    Both the Savage and Remington actions are 1.350 OD. With special modifications both can be made to accomodate a 338 Lapua. But is it safe, practical or foolish? Several aftermarket Custom actions are available most offer slightly larger OD actions, larger and longer bolts, magwells, and ejection ports. There are several you tube videos out there of Savage and Remington actions being fired in slow motion in the larger magnums. It is amazing the action flex. It destroys scope base screws bases, and scope tubes etc.

    Not telling you it can't be done because it has. Is it a wise thing to do, again that is your opinion. I know of several very reputable smiths who recomend against it.

    If you shear a bolt lug it might kill you or someone you love.

    Nat Lambeth
     
  11. NFG

    NFG Member

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    First...I am doing a 510 AR right now...a .510 cal using a shortened to 2.65" Rigby case...Lapua and Rigby both have the same size rim and base...within 0.002". I'm using an older F111NS, 1.345" OD, 1.055" x 20 tpi action. It has been at various times a 25-06, 7mm RM, 30-06, 300 WM, 375 H&H, 416 Taylor and now(soon to be) a 500 AR...and the '06, WM barrels are still swappable along with the various box mags...the 375 H&H is on a newer Savage LA and the 416 Taylor barrel is now on an old Tang model Ruger M77.

    Second...ANY action can be destroyed if you get stupid with the pressures...ANY action will flex...some more than others...ANY mauser action is flexible because of the construction...I keep seeing this cautionary statement "something's gonna happen IF..." scattered all over the net...it's like saying a car will kill you IF you get run over...stay off the street... or use your eyes...EVERYTHING in this sport is inherently dangerous, you just have to play it safe every chance you get...and keep your head when all others are loosing theirs. Besides in todays litigous atmosphere NO ONE is giving advice without all the wiggle words...gun)

    Third...it is a fairly simple, straight forward barrel/chamber job...DON'T USE A NUT...you get the full size of the barrel that way...before you jump on me, do some pressure calculations...you will see even with the smaller barrel OD and even with a nut there is plenty of strength as long as you stay below 65KPSI.

    All that need be done is the following;

    Have ANY 'smith or machine shop grind a magnum bolt head face rim out to 0.600" ID(leave a little wiggle room for the case head)...I did my with a lathe(1000rpm), air grinder(20Krpm) and 1/4" carbide safe end burr...it left a nice ring so the case won't slip off the bolthead.

    I did all the other mods taking about a weeks time futzing around and also doing other projects...it shouldn't take a real machinist more than about two hours at the most to do all the other mods...INCLUDING installing the barrel.

    Using a standard 300WM box mag...cut off the two small bottom bends to allow the spring to set on the bottom of the cutout...cut back the top notch 1/8"and re-contour - needed so the larger case will release right...bend the lips slightly so the case will feed - can be done with a pair of pliers, a small cresent wrench etc, and a small brass hammer. You are only changing the dimensions about 0.030'" per side.

    You need to make a new follower if you want 3 down, otherwise the OEM mag follower works great for 2 down....3 rnd follower (ALUM) - 0.850" wide, 0 .300" thick, milled 0.080" deep on the bottom for the spring to seat, an 8-32 hole drilled and tapped for the spring screw, and a 0.110" deep groove slightly offset to the left and 0.590" wide for the case to sit in. YOu also need the box 2.00" deep from the top of the right frame rail plus 'Z' kink the mag box a bit about 3/4" from the bottom so it is 1" wide for the lowest round.

    I've done all your work for you....:cool: I have a end view of the mag box profile including the follower, but that will cost you MONEY...:D hahahahaha..

    McGowen is the goto barrel maker...$250 - $500 depending on how fancy you get...and a couple weeks wait...much faster than any other barrel maker I've used. My barrel, using a 1.5" blank to get the full 1.345" receiver OD, is 33", chambered, contoured #7, fitted and crowned will be $350-400, not sure which yet...but close...CM barrel alone is only $155, but they have the reamer so I will let them do the rest otherwise I would to all the work...33" bbl - add $45, contour - add $30, chamber - add $72, thread - add $60, fit - add$45. Interested...goto McGowen Precision Barrels Home

    For those that want a full 3.60" mag, you will have to go to the 375H&H mag box and have your action milled to fit, plus a screw hold-on conversion added to the back of the box...if you're smart.

    I can't comment on the Stevens...I've never worked with one, but I've done a bunch of Sav's LA and SA since the early '60's...also a bunch of Rem's and Rugers.

    The REAL DEAL with ANY conversion or ANY rifle/cartridge is not being a DUMAZZ with the pressure...the rest is straight forward reloading samo-samo...YOU ALWAYS have to option download!!!

    Been doing this wildcat "stuff" for a very long time...wish people would keep their faces out of the apple barrel when they don't have any teeth to bite with, but it is human nature to jaw flap and say nothing with a lot of words...even worse on the net.:rolleyes:

    I emailed one of the 'smiths mentioned in one of the threads for the cost of doing the bolt head and maybe some of the other work...but got no reply...guess he was too busy or didn't care...or???

    To anyone wanting to do this conversion...be safe with the reloading...REMEMBER dropping the pressure 10% only looses 5% velocity, usually is 100% more accurate, 1000% more safe and you brass and rifle will last a whole lot longer.lightbulb not to mention keeping your hide OEM.

    This is NOT a DGR rifle, but as long as you don't short stroke or mess up jacking a round it is as safe as any other push fee. It will make a humongous pig/elk/moose/brush/T-Rex whacker with 400-600 gr bullets...hard cast OR jacketed...and you DON'T have to load it to the gills to get the whackadoodledoo.gun)

    A 338 Lapua case is built a lot stonger than most other brands of brass which will give you a smaller case volume so if you use one be cognizant of this fact...otherwise just be cognizant of ALL the associated problems inherent in reloading.


    Luck on your projects.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  12. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Go to www.savageshooters.com and search "338 Lapua"

    Think you will find that southernfriedyankee alreay asked that question was given info recently on why not especially for a small shank. Pretty good advice too.

    If you want a Lapua, get an action designed for it. It is not just pressure you need to worry about.

    BH
     
  13. NFG

    NFG Member

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    I went there...spent 45 minutes trying to find something specific...all I found was a lot of references to "You can't do it..." something about the bolt lugs...something about the magazine length...some "dire results" warnings...a lot of he said/she said, go here, go there and repeats...and not much else...I didn't find anything concrete and/or specific to a problem area.

    I also emailed Sharp Shooters Supply for some specifics and Fred just replied he didn't recommend it. I been at this business for a very long time and need more than that to be convinced.

    If you could reference a specific link/thread/post concerning WHERE the danger/problem lies I would appreciate it.

    I don't want to get argumentative here, but some of the "stuff" about a "small shank" just doesn't compute...the OD of the receiver is the same on both "large shank" and "small shank" as far as I understand although I haven't actually measured a WSM chambered receiver...if someone has or can point to the reference I would appreciate that information also.

    That means there is the SAME amount of steel surrounding the chamber...the barrel and receiver act as a solid...not as two pieces...the pressures are transmitted through the threads.

    The 10.57 Lazzaroni was chambered in one iteration of the Savage, and that case is only slightly smaller in OD than a Lapua/Rigby by 0.010"...my 375 H&H magazine will handle 3.60" COAL's and the action will certainly handle the pressure of the Lazzaroni cartridge. The cartridge base only extends 0.110" from the chamber face and is basically enclosed...albeit a small ring of steel and the cartridge brass at that point will handle all the pressure generated by a 338 Lapua WITHOUT being supported by ANY ring of steel.

    I'm NOT TRYING TO TALK ANYONE INTO ANYTHING HERE...just pointing out a few facts.

    I ran some calculations for the barrel alone at 1.055" OD and 0.590" ID, 0.2325" walls and the burst pressure was 98KPSI...NOT counting the receiver...if the 1.345 receiver OD is calculated the burst pressure is 136KPSI...using a working pressure of 60KPSI...even using 0.990" OD at the bottom of the threads, the calculated burst pressure is 88KPSI.

    I can see there is always a safety issue and if I were a paid gunsmith I would pressure test a Lapua cartridge before I did any mods because there is always someone doing something wrong, and lawyers like to eat high on the hog.

    There was a problem with the cross pin holding the bolt head on cracking with the large dia firing pin...I've had a couple break, but not since I switched to the small OD firing pin...that was with 7mm RM, 300 WM, 375 H&H and 416 Taylor barrels on one receiver.

    If length is an issue the bullet can be seated to a COAL that will work in the mag and not cause a lot of velocity loss.

    So where's the specific problem area??? I would REALLY appreciate the information for a number of reasons. I've done a lot of wildcatting and have some strange combinations of receivers and barrels and SAFETY is always first when I do a project...I don't see anything unsafe here and I think I have looked at the project pretty hard from many angles.

    The 500 AR I'm doing will run about 3.4" COAL, 500-600 gr bullets at about 2200fs and below 50KPSI...that's about all the recoil I want to handle...I can't see any reason a 338 Lapua with 300 gr bullets at 2600fs wouldn't work just as well...

    Of course if you want to seat out to near 4" you need to single load or use a magnum length action.

    Thanks

    Enjoy your toys
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
  14. Rustystud

    Rustystud Well-Known Member

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    NFG:

    You asked for opinions. Others opinions don't agree with yours, that is life and the rest of us get on with it. I don't wish to provoke an argument.

    I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

    Are you a licensed and insured Gunsmith (Type 01 FFL) or Manufacture (Type 07 FFL)?

    Do you carry liability insurance policies with either Joseph Chiarello & Co,. Inc or Lloyds of London, as these are the only two Firearms Insurer in North America. Neither companies policies would allow for modifing and chambering a 338 Lapua on a Savage action.

    Are you a licensed (PE) mechanical engineer?

    Have you ever experienced or observed as catistrophic rifle failure?

    This forum is provided to us by Len to share our wealth of knowledge and experience.

    You might build a 338 Lapua on a Savage 110 or Stevens 200 action and have many years of wonderful shooting experience.

    I can tell you that Savage has not offered this rifle in this chambering. I suspect that is for a reason. You might call Ron Colburn or Joe Degrande at Savage an ask them why Savage does not offer the 338 Lapua in their line-up.

    I know Jerry Stiller, John Pierce, Jim Borden all make Custom actions that are clones of the Remington 700. The OD of both the action and bolt are simular in the Savage. None of these makers recomend building 338s on their 1.350 actions with bolts that are .701. All make beefer actions for the .338 Lapua.


    NFG if you build or find someone else to build a .338 Lapua on a Savage action and you have a catistrophic failure and someone else is injured or killed there will be law suits. Having posted and been warned of the possibility of catistrophic failure will make the plantiffs case for them.

    Why put yourself in that position when it can be avoided by using a properly engineered action from the get go.

    This will be my last post regarding this subject. I have made my opinion known. It is supported both by the industry and many very reputable gunsmiths. I am confident you can find others who will agree and/or disagree with my post.

    I wish you many years of safe shooting.

    Nat Lambeth