.308 warbird questions.

[klallen]

Simple answer is I'd get the Warbird cause that's the round I want. I truely love my 7.82 Warbird, "keep what you kill". What drew me to it back in 1998 was the thought of 3500 fps with a 180 gr. bullet. Sounded awesome. Funny how nowadays that can be construed as a lacking of performance. Times change, I guess. Stewed over the desire for a long time, wondering how the heck I was going to make it a reality and then the deal with Sako was struck. Once the affordable TRG-S was introduced, purchase was a no brainer. I won't lie to ya, there was great frustration with the performance I achieved during original development in 2001, directly linked to poor brass quality. I lost a lot of cases that summer pushing to reach 3500 fps to no avail. Topped out at 3420 fps and that's where she stayed. I was unhappy but never did consider giving up on the round. Caught wind of quality improvements in 2004 and got to a new round of development. Was almost giddey with excitement as I finally achieved full Warbird potential with a repeatable load. I couldn't be happier that I stuck with the round. For my hunting needs, a 180 gr. AccuBond at 3500+ fps covers lots of bases and it covers them real well. Cost of brass is a non-issue for me. Relatively speaking, yeah, it's pricey, but ya gotta keep things in perspective. Spending the $$$ we do on custom rigs or out of state hunts or 5th wheels and camping trips, I'd feel like a fool if I made a big deal about spending $100 to get myself a working lot of brass that'll more then likely last me a lifetime. LOL. I'm hunting with a round I have a lot of respect for that's accurate as hell. I see nothing in the numbers that'd indicate I'd be any better off with a factory .338 Lapua. So, if I had the decision to make right now, between these two choices and knowing what I do, I'll happily stick with what I've got. Later. >> klallen

 

[Fiftydriver]

I have been watching this post for a while now and am not surpised by the responses to the Warbird. Its a love hate thing with the Lazzeroni rounds. Mainly a hate thing.

That said, I would agree that there has been alot of hype spread by Lazzeroni himself about his rounds performance but mainly in the beginning. The lack of quality brass in the beginning and the lack of powders available to make these rounds perform as advertised left a bad taste in alot of shooters mouths.

Personal dealings with Lazzeroni himself with a couple projects made me swear off the man and his products. His customer service leaves alot to be designed to say the least.

All that said, if you look at the round and rifle itsself, the 7.82 Warbird in the Sako TRG-S, on performance merits alone comparing factory rounds, it is on the very top of the pile for 30 cal magnums.

In 26" barrels, it will match the 30-378 simply because there is no way to burn 120 gr of powder in a 26" pipe out of the big Wby.

The design of the round is also go, shorter then a true full length magnum which helps it fit into conventional length magnum receivers.

In the beginning 3500 fps was a pipe dream with the 7.82. I was with Klallen when he did all of his load testing for his Sako Warbird and he was very frustrated with the inability to reach advertised 3500 fps levels without popping primer pockets in the very spendy brass.

He loaded to just above 3400 fps with the 180 gr pills and left it there. With those numbers, its still the second ranking 30 cal magnum offered in a factory chambering and not much off the 30-378.

Recently, it seems the brass quality or at least strength has been beefied up and with the release of Retumbo, I again was with Klallen when he retested and redeveloped his Warbird loads. He started with the 200 gr Accubonds and reached 3300 fps pretty comfortably with top loads.

He also redeveloped loads for the 180 gr Accubond which reached 3500 fps pretty easily. He stopped right at the point where his velocity averages broke 3500 fps and left it there. IF I remember correctly, the last group he shot on paper at 100 yards was less then 3/8" ctc.

So while I will admit no love for the man himself and that in the early stages, there was alot more hype then performance from his rounds, now adays, with the powders we have available to us, at least with the 30 cal version, his numbers are practical with top end loads.

As far as the Sako TRG-S rifle. As a rifle builder, the design has some flaws. Mainly in the recoil lug design. Keep the receiver screws tight at all times and generally they are very good quality moderate range rifles.

In watching and shooting Klallens Warbird, I would not feel uncomfortable taking 1/2 mile shots at big game.

Weither you like the round, the man or the rifles, you can not complain about a 105 to 110 gr powder charge under a 180 to 220 gr bullet in 30 cal. In a quality rifle, there is nothing that combination will not do at any practical range you want to shoot at.

I feel the biggest problem with the Lazzeroni rounds was poor brass quality early on(some improvements have been made) but more so then that Lazzeroni himself burning to many bridges with to many claims of "best ______ in the world" and an attitude toward customers that is less then steller from my personal appearance.

My opinion, if you like the round and want to pay for the brass, by all means go for it. Loaded to same chamber pressures in same barrel lengths, no 300 RUM will match it. There is not a huge advantage for the Warbird but generally 75 to 100 fps in most cases.

The problem is that most have never seen what a rifle built from the ground up designed for long range hunting could do with the Warbird. I do not know of a single custom rifle set up specifically for LR hunting in this caliber. I am sure they are out there but not many. That may change someday.

So while there was lot of hype with these rounds, when use properly for our purposes, there is no way to say it is still not on the top of the performance pile in 30 cal magnums.

With my 300 AX, my goal is to match the performance of this round and the 30-378 but in a shorter package with the use of higher pressures.

If you want the Sako, by all means get it, if its a shooter, you certainly will not be unhappy with the performance of the Warbird as long as you handload. Shooting factory ammo is simply not smart with its $90 per 20 price tag!!!

Just my opinion, the round was getting a bit of a hammering and it really should not be picked on so. The man that designed it is kind of a pain in my opinion, but it is a good design.

Another 2 cents to throw in the kitty!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[James Jones]

Kirby , whats the OAL of your 300 AX gonna be? and will it fit in a regular action or is it gonna be a round for the big Bat's and Lawton's?

 

[Fiftydriver]

JDJones,

My reamer will have the same throat length as my 7mm AM so OAL will be set at around 3.600 to 3.700" depending on which bullet will be hanging out the end of the case. This will be for the repeating rifles with conventional length mag boxes.

For those that want single shots with long throats or want to use the extended Wyatts box with a 3.910" length, I have a live piloted throating reamer in shop as well to cut the throats to any custom length desired.

With the throat length on the reamer, it should work fine in standard Rem 700 length mag boxes or better yet HS Precision DM systems.

OF course it will be just as at home in the custom receivers as well.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[klallen]

Morning 50 >> I do respect the words and experience on this site a great deal but with all this talk about hype and never reaching advertised peformance levels of one of my favorite rounds, I wanted a refresher on exactly what I was seeing back then. Did some deeper digging into my old load data for the 7.82 Warbird. To ensure case life with those old cases and to reach that average velocity of 3420 fps that I was getting, I used 105 gr. of H1000. In the search for 3500 fps, I did work up through 106 gr. (3436 fps) and 107 gr. (3544 fps) of the same powder, but as you well remember, primer pockets on a good chuck of my working lot of brass was destroyed. I can remember the frustration I felt, but in reality was probably more frustrated with loosing costly brass then any performance descrepencies. Either way, looking back on the information I had available to me more closely, I can remember clearly why I stuck with the round, besides the fact it was a personal fav, of course. The load data delivered to me with the RCBS dies that I purchased differed from data typically seen in mags and various advertisements for the cartridge. Published top end loads used a "conventional" 180 gr. bullet and averaged 3400 - 3460 fps, depending on which of the 3 powder choices you went with that Lazz. used for development (IMR7828, A8700, RL25). And, again, from a 27" barrel. I can remember writting to Lazz. for data using H1000 and got a quick response back saying that he did not have info. using this powder but when I had completed development to forward it on to him. When we completed developement, I forwarded this info. to Lazz. with a return e-mail of thanks and that was that. With regards to advertised performance compared to my achieved performance, in reality, there were no discrepencies. I was exactly where I should be. 3500 fps was always the advertising benchmark for this round but it's pretty easy to see why I couldn't get there in the rifle I had with the components I was using. I just had to many things working against me. I wasn't using a 27" barrel. I didn't have the advantage of a tight, custom chamber. Brass quality, at the time, was sub-par at best. I'm not even sure the powder I was using was optimal for this size of round, although it's probably as close to the best we had at the time. And I wasn't using the bullets Lazz. used for his hot, top end loads he printed to market the cartridge in mags and on his web site. Tripped across a small reminder I'd written to myself back then that I'd completely forgotten about that read "Possibly look into Lazz. bullets". Never did do this because of the cost associated, but always wondered with that outcome might have been. Remember, he used a process by which he ordered his bullets intentionally undersized smaller then diameter and then brought them back to specs using a plated lubricant. I believe still today, with his LazerHead bullets (nothing more then triple shocks, really) he's using the same process. I know there are varying opinions on the benefits of lubricants on bullets but I can't discount at least the possibility that even hampered by H1000, the looser spec'ed factory chamber, poor case quality and a 26" barrel, I may have very well been able to achieve 3500 fps (or closer to it) if I'd simply worked with his bullets. My choice, my loss, I guess. Back then I never did reach 3500 fps, but rather then call it cartride hype as my reasoning why, there are some pretty clear cut and obvious reasons why I never got there.

I'd love to have a custom Warbird built from scratch on a 700 or one of the popular custom actions out there. Just don't think it's in the works right now. We'll address the scope issue first and see what this rifle as it sits has to offer at 500 - 700 yds. Maybe a 28" Lilja with appropiate twist will be our next step. Certianly wouldn't mind seeing what a tight chamber and long barrel would do for performance. In time, I suppose. Later. >> klallen

 

[Chawlston]

Hello,

If you are into speed, then try some GS custom bullets. They are extremely accurate and fast in all calibers. I would imagine, you could get 3600 to 3700 fps with them since they do not have much of a bearing surface.

James

 

[Head_Hunter123]

so, from the factory the lazz rounds dont shoot at the advertised velocity's?? And how would a .338 lapua shoot from the factory. i would feel comfertable to just find a load that would match factory performance at first and then worry about fine tunning it to the max. And as far a recoil a .338 with a muzzle break would be like a.... thanks for the help.

 

[klallen]

Probably a good chance factory Lazz. stuff wouldn't match up exactly to what's listed on the box. He'd be developing loads using a 27" barrel with a tight, custom chamber. If you're shooting a factory rifle, you'd be using a 26" barrel with a chamber held to lessor tolerances. No guarantee that you wouldn't meet advertised fps, but it would certainly stand to reason if you didn't.

Using whichever bullet you chose for the round, if you use Retumbo, I really don't think you'd have trouble reaching (+/-20 fps) advertised performance quotes.

That Lapua I shot was a while ago. Felt recoil was somewhere between my .25-06 and .270 loads, as I remember it. Don't remember the specifics on the load used (50 developed the load) but it was real manageable.

Later. >> klallen

 

[Fiftydriver]

In a production rifle, you will be hard pressed to find any factory ammo that reaches advertised velocity specs. This is simply because most ammo manufacturers develope their ammo in tight chambered, tight bored match barrels. Then when that same ammo is fired in a production rifle with looser chamber, throat and bore, the pressure generated drops significantly resulting in the less then advertised velocity results.

Now this is on average, every one in a while you will get a combo that will match or even slightly exceed what the factory said it should but this is not common in any way.

Another bonus for the 338 Lapua is that Hornady is now making factory ammo for this chambering. I believe with a 250 gr BTHP match bullet.

There are not many more factory ammo options for the 338 as there is the warbird and both are spendy and I would say neither would match listed advertised velocity potentials.

Only way to get the most for your money is to handload either of these rounds and if you do so you will get better performance with ALOT less out of pocket expense.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Head_Hunter123]

I am starting to lean against the lazz. because i am 99.9% sure that im going to have a .338lapua mag smithed. and the fact that there are a lot of different bullets for them makes it a plus. but i gotta go im sitting in heathrow airport waiting on my plane. latter.

 

[Lazzerhead]

hello im new to the forums, and i had a few questions about the .308 warbird, like recoil. i shoot a.270 and 30.06 2x a week and ready to move up on a long range gun. and my dad pointed this cartridge out. from what i could see the ballistics looked very nice. but i was just concerend of the recoil. any experiences???

If you like to have a unique caliber the warbird is it. There is no equal to it in the 30 caliber class. I shoot a Sako TRG-S with a 30" krieger fluted barrel. I shoot 1/2" groups consistanly with my zeiss scope. Dont sell yourself short if the brass cost is not an issue. You will get 190 grain bullets moving at 3500 ft/per second.