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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?
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<blockquote data-quote="Bart B" data-source="post: 797254" data-attributes="member: 5302"><p>Thanks</p><p></p><p>And the 700's were commercially available. Win. 70 were not. Closest thing about anybody buying Win 70 actions was back in the 1950's when they made 20 classic magnum length single-shot ones with no magazine cutout; solid steel in that area. Sold 'em to the US Army for use in their 30 caliber magnum 1000 yard prone rifles. Remmies are cheap to make and they wanted to flood the market with them; they did as they cost 1/3 to 1/2 what a Winnie would. And their use with the .222 Rem. in benchrest matches outperforming anything else available at reasonable cost glued their names in the minds of sellers and buyers. Remmie's barrels in their sporters were much more accurate than either the broach cut or hammer forged Winnie barrels. Many folks tried to talk Winchester into improving their barrels but they did not. Only their 30 caliber match barrels shot oversize bullets really good because their groove diameters were bigger than virtually all commercial bullets. Both of Olin's companies, Winchester and Western Cartridge Company, knew about this and their match bullets were almost .309" diameter while their sporting and hunting ones were .308" or smaller. Remmie barrels were tighter and therefore their better accuracy was easy to see with virtually all commercially available bullets.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, I'll give my reasons for liking the Winnie better than the Remmie following specific areas you mention:</p><p></p><p>I and many others havd thrown a round into a classic controlled feed Winnie in rapid fire matches and closed the bolt easily. The cutout in the barrel tenon lets the claw extractor designed to do this easily ride out and back into the case rim; their face is angled to do that. 'Twas designed that way.</p><p> </p><p>Seeings how the cartridge case is the weakest part of the rifle-ammo system and smart reloaders don't go with hot loads, that's not an issue. Winnies and Remmies are good for over 120,000 to 130,000 psi receiver and bolt wise.</p><p></p><p>Non issue.</p><p></p><p>Put an Anschutz Biathlon trigger on a Winnie and nothing else will come close to repeatability, feel and reliability; they're popular on Palma rifles needing a 3.5 pound trigger.</p><p></p><p>Dozens (hundreds?) of those round Winnies twisted loose from conventional epoxy bedding when folks tried to use them with 30 caliber rounds with bullets heavier than 160 grains. The military teams tried 2-inch long recoil lugs on their Remmies to keep the 30 caliber magnums from twisting out of bedding after a couple hundred shots. Only when sleeved with flat bottom/sides on the aluminum block did the hold bedding. Pillar bedding helps. Conventional epoxy bedding is good enough for the Winnies; they hold bedding for a few barrels easily.</p><p></p><p>Winnie's extractors are more reliable than the M16 claw and a lot more than the Remmie's. Besides, they are nice for single round loading and extracting; holds the empty case in the receiver so it can be easily pulled out and put away. Wish I had a sawbuck for every Remmie extractor breaking in matches. Never heard of a Winnie breaking.</p><p> </p><p>Their longer bolt's easier to operate in rapid fire, magazine fed rounds do so more reliable, easier to replace parts without tools and have the best safety going.</p><p></p><p>Only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention. Note the Armed Forces did not pick the Winnie for their new sniper rifle in the late '60's 'cause Winchester was in dire financial straits at the time. All the service team comptitors (many of whom were top level snipers) wanted the Winnie as it was (and still is) a more reliable platform and better suited for field maintnenace.</p><p></p><p>It's only a more expensive way to go. They dominate the high level accuracy games only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention.</p><p></p><p>Did I forget to mention that a Remmie long action's only about 1/3rd as stiff/rigid a Winnie? Go measure both and find out for yourself.</p><p></p><p>I've seen more than a few 30 caliber magnum Remmie's recoil lug bent forward at the bottom. They need to be thicker and thicker/stronger ones are available. And when talking with some of South Africa's hunting guides, the horror stories of Remmie 458's recoil lugs bending were astonishing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bart B, post: 797254, member: 5302"] Thanks And the 700's were commercially available. Win. 70 were not. Closest thing about anybody buying Win 70 actions was back in the 1950's when they made 20 classic magnum length single-shot ones with no magazine cutout; solid steel in that area. Sold 'em to the US Army for use in their 30 caliber magnum 1000 yard prone rifles. Remmies are cheap to make and they wanted to flood the market with them; they did as they cost 1/3 to 1/2 what a Winnie would. And their use with the .222 Rem. in benchrest matches outperforming anything else available at reasonable cost glued their names in the minds of sellers and buyers. Remmie's barrels in their sporters were much more accurate than either the broach cut or hammer forged Winnie barrels. Many folks tried to talk Winchester into improving their barrels but they did not. Only their 30 caliber match barrels shot oversize bullets really good because their groove diameters were bigger than virtually all commercial bullets. Both of Olin's companies, Winchester and Western Cartridge Company, knew about this and their match bullets were almost .309" diameter while their sporting and hunting ones were .308" or smaller. Remmie barrels were tighter and therefore their better accuracy was easy to see with virtually all commercially available bullets. Meanwhile, I'll give my reasons for liking the Winnie better than the Remmie following specific areas you mention: I and many others havd thrown a round into a classic controlled feed Winnie in rapid fire matches and closed the bolt easily. The cutout in the barrel tenon lets the claw extractor designed to do this easily ride out and back into the case rim; their face is angled to do that. 'Twas designed that way. Seeings how the cartridge case is the weakest part of the rifle-ammo system and smart reloaders don't go with hot loads, that's not an issue. Winnies and Remmies are good for over 120,000 to 130,000 psi receiver and bolt wise. Non issue. Put an Anschutz Biathlon trigger on a Winnie and nothing else will come close to repeatability, feel and reliability; they're popular on Palma rifles needing a 3.5 pound trigger. Dozens (hundreds?) of those round Winnies twisted loose from conventional epoxy bedding when folks tried to use them with 30 caliber rounds with bullets heavier than 160 grains. The military teams tried 2-inch long recoil lugs on their Remmies to keep the 30 caliber magnums from twisting out of bedding after a couple hundred shots. Only when sleeved with flat bottom/sides on the aluminum block did the hold bedding. Pillar bedding helps. Conventional epoxy bedding is good enough for the Winnies; they hold bedding for a few barrels easily. Winnie's extractors are more reliable than the M16 claw and a lot more than the Remmie's. Besides, they are nice for single round loading and extracting; holds the empty case in the receiver so it can be easily pulled out and put away. Wish I had a sawbuck for every Remmie extractor breaking in matches. Never heard of a Winnie breaking. Their longer bolt's easier to operate in rapid fire, magazine fed rounds do so more reliable, easier to replace parts without tools and have the best safety going. Only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention. Note the Armed Forces did not pick the Winnie for their new sniper rifle in the late '60's 'cause Winchester was in dire financial straits at the time. All the service team comptitors (many of whom were top level snipers) wanted the Winnie as it was (and still is) a more reliable platform and better suited for field maintnenace. It's only a more expensive way to go. They dominate the high level accuracy games only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention. Did I forget to mention that a Remmie long action's only about 1/3rd as stiff/rigid a Winnie? Go measure both and find out for yourself. I've seen more than a few 30 caliber magnum Remmie's recoil lug bent forward at the bottom. They need to be thicker and thicker/stronger ones are available. And when talking with some of South Africa's hunting guides, the horror stories of Remmie 458's recoil lugs bending were astonishing. [/QUOTE]
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