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Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 848585" data-attributes="member: 10"><p><span style="color: #000080">if you really read my post a and thought about it, the .300 WBY was not my recommendation! But as more than one 1000 yard target shooter will tell you right up front it's probably one of the very best factory based cartridge to start out shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would have started with a 6.5 or 7mm something, but the OP wanted a 30 caliber round. The bad part about the .300 is that we can't get 3100 powder anymore. I often use the AA manual because they are not afraid to list the pressures involved. The loads I listed came out of the Hornaday manual because it was handy, and lets face it most guys will start with a loading manual. In a 300 mag, I'd start with AA3100, and probably stop there as well (I still have two bottles of it).</span></p><p></p><p>I realized full well you were recommending the WSM, yet that was not one of the options the OP asked about.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000080">I simply picked out one load, and could have listed four different loads. Whether or not is was the best is a moote point here, as I was looking at what you got for the amount of powder you dumped. There's a lot more to adding 8oz. to the barrel, and you already know this. It changes the over all balance of the rifle shooting off hand, and a few other things as well. </span></p><p></p><p>This is long range hunting dot come. Rifles will be shot off bipod front and bag supported rear, rifle balance means very little for this type of shooting. I am pretty sure the OP was not wanting an "off hand" long range rifle. Again, this is LONGRANGEHUNTING.com, not your general hunting board. When we make recommendations for posters, we need to listen to what they want and recommend something for LONG RANGE HUNTING, not offhand hunting.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000080">These days I only shoot one round the large double radius chamber. Just don't have the time to mess with some of the others. But what I've learned is that I never see a doughnut. Brass flow is very, very low. Gas flow is best with the larger radi. And less face it the strongest thing in nature is a circle or in this case an arc (Physics 101). I'll take that shoulder anyday of the week, as it works well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><em>Ackley and Jarrett did their rounds because it's easier to form a sharp shoulder, but you get to deal with their own set of issues as well. With the .300 Ackley you get the pronounced doughnut rather quickly, and the Jarrett will produce it a little later in the game. But to take this a step further, and you look at 1000 yard 30 caliber shooters. They either use the Weatherby, or the Ackley design. Both work well. Yet you don't see anybody shooting the 30-378 or the Ultra mag!</em></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black">This simply is not true. The double radiused shoulder offers the least resistance to brass flow. If you load the Wby cases to max pressures, you WILL See more case stretching then with a conventional sharp shoulder angle. That is a fact. No donut, possibly true but that's because its flowing around a corner, not a sharp angle is all but the brass is still flowing easily around that double radiused shoulder. It is also not true about the reason Ackely and Jarrett went with a sharp shoulder angle because of ease of forming. It was for accurate and consistant shoulder location and contact with the chamber for better accuracy results.</span></p><p> </p><p>Again, THIS IS LONG RANGE HUNTING. Not long range target shooting. Your recommendations need to be as such. Yes target shooters prefer smaller chamberings but I would have to see the spec list of the top shooters in the world to believe that they are shooting the Wby or Ackley. I do not believe that to be true. Would have to see the top shooters spec lists to believe this. Most of the long range records being set are with smaller caliber rounds these days from what I read.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000080">I said the .300 WBY was over bore as well, but also said the other two were somewhat ridiculous. But also said that you needed to be looking at 220 grain and heavier bullets to make sense out of these cases (at one time the Navy was playing around with 300 grain solid tungsten bullets in the .300 Win mag and Weatherby case). Yet a lot of folks are using the .300 WSM case with great results. Seems to be easier to develop loads for, and the powder selection is greater. Now taking notes from Parker Ackley's book, he does point the issues of over bore, verses not being over bore. They are known to be a lot more forgiving in load development. Have a greater barrel life, and tend to group tighter. (an example here is the 6BR and 30BR as both are well known over achievers)</span></p><p></p><p>Again, not true. The 300 Wby is not over bore by modern standards. Maybe 30 years ago you had an argument but not today. The term overbore came from back in the day when guys were trying to load a 300 Wby using IMR 4350. That is not the case today. The term is outdated and does not apply to much of anything today with our modern loading powders. Again, your comments about PO Ackleys notes simply point out that your arguments are 30-40 years old and out dated. With the powders he used, YES, with the powders we have today, NO WAY.</p><p> </p><p>Again, WE ARE NOT ON 1000 yard BR.com. We are talking about using a rifle that can put the velocity and energy on target at long range to get the job done, not simply the best round for best accuracy on paper at long range. True there are many rounds that may be slightly more accurate then the 300 RUM but in real world big game HUNTING situations at long range, firing rifles from FIELD postions, you will NEVER realize that slight advantage. What you will realize is a heavier bullet, with higher BC value bucking the wind better to the target that is NOT on a shooting range with wind flags and zero angle and when the bullet gets there you will have the advantage of higher retained velocity for better bullet expansion and also higher retained energy loads for better vital tissue distruction. </p><p> </p><p>Again, this is LONG RANGE HUNTING. Your reponses should be directed in that way, not for target use or purposes.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000080">First of all I have not bought a gun magazine in about 15 years, and never did trust 90% of the writers (and still would not). I can only think of one magazine that ever used the neck shoulder design issue, and that was Precision Shooting. I can vouch for just about everything those guys published, and many others will as well. </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black">I have read articles on the subject of neck length/shoulder angle and barrel life in Shooting Times, Varmint Hunter, Precision Reloading just to name a few. I will also say I have proven the fact that how a rifle is shot and cleaned is far more important then what its chambered in for barrel life. My lightweight 7mm Allen Magnum which is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design which you say would be ridiculously overbored, has well over 1000 rounds down the bore and still shoots into sub 3/4 moa groups and has taken close to 30 head of big game from 500 to 930 yards with all but two being one shot kills. To your way of thinking, this rifle barrel should have been toast 5 years ago but its simply WRONG. Heat a barrel up and keep shooting and the barrel wear increases expodentially, keep it cool and be religious in that and you will be amazed how long a worthless chambering like this can last for barrel life. Again, we are not talking about 10 shot groups on paper which it seems you are. I am talking about limiting strings to no more then three shots and once that is one, GETTING off paper and doing practical field shooting practice where one shot is all that is taken at any specific range to sharpen your drop chart and your first shot hit skills. I am not a comp shooter. I do not design comp guns, I design big game rifles that flatten big game at very long ranges, not punch holes in paper at very long ranges.</span></p><p> </p><p>Finally, the OP asked about the 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM or 30-378 Wby, you recommend the 300 WSM and 308 Norma.... Two fine rounds but neither were asked about and the latter is for the most part a dinosaur. How one could recommend it over the 300 Win Mag these days is a mystery to me.</p><p> </p><p>As far as your comments about the 300 WSM and if the owner did not like it you could just rebarrel it to something that suited the shooter better. Like what, another WSM which would be your only opinion........ </p><p> </p><p>Get the Rem 700 in a 300 RUM, that way if you did not like it, you would actually have options to rebarrel it to anything with a magnum rim diameter down the road, that would included belted magnum or non belted, 100 times more flexible for rebuilding down the road.</p><p> </p><p>I do not mean to attack you but all of your advice seems to come from a target shooters background which is fine but it has very little to do with long range BIG GAME HUNTING. True there is cross over to each but when your making claims of the BEST for this and BEST for that, your simply not being factual. Everything you have claimed as being the BEST, I could bring up a dozen points why in fact it is not the best for long range HUNTING.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 848585, member: 10"] [COLOR=#000080]if you really read my post a and thought about it, the .300 WBY was not my recommendation! But as more than one 1000 yard target shooter will tell you right up front it's probably one of the very best factory based cartridge to start out shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would have started with a 6.5 or 7mm something, but the OP wanted a 30 caliber round. The bad part about the .300 is that we can't get 3100 powder anymore. I often use the AA manual because they are not afraid to list the pressures involved. The loads I listed came out of the Hornaday manual because it was handy, and lets face it most guys will start with a loading manual. In a 300 mag, I'd start with AA3100, and probably stop there as well (I still have two bottles of it).[/COLOR] I realized full well you were recommending the WSM, yet that was not one of the options the OP asked about. [COLOR=#000080]I simply picked out one load, and could have listed four different loads. Whether or not is was the best is a moote point here, as I was looking at what you got for the amount of powder you dumped. There's a lot more to adding 8oz. to the barrel, and you already know this. It changes the over all balance of the rifle shooting off hand, and a few other things as well. [/COLOR] This is long range hunting dot come. Rifles will be shot off bipod front and bag supported rear, rifle balance means very little for this type of shooting. I am pretty sure the OP was not wanting an "off hand" long range rifle. Again, this is LONGRANGEHUNTING.com, not your general hunting board. When we make recommendations for posters, we need to listen to what they want and recommend something for LONG RANGE HUNTING, not offhand hunting. [COLOR=#000080]These days I only shoot one round the large double radius chamber. Just don't have the time to mess with some of the others. But what I've learned is that I never see a doughnut. Brass flow is very, very low. Gas flow is best with the larger radi. And less face it the strongest thing in nature is a circle or in this case an arc (Physics 101). I'll take that shoulder anyday of the week, as it works well. [I]Ackley and Jarrett did their rounds because it's easier to form a sharp shoulder, but you get to deal with their own set of issues as well. With the .300 Ackley you get the pronounced doughnut rather quickly, and the Jarrett will produce it a little later in the game. But to take this a step further, and you look at 1000 yard 30 caliber shooters. They either use the Weatherby, or the Ackley design. Both work well. Yet you don't see anybody shooting the 30-378 or the Ultra mag![/I][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#000080][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=black]This simply is not true. The double radiused shoulder offers the least resistance to brass flow. If you load the Wby cases to max pressures, you WILL See more case stretching then with a conventional sharp shoulder angle. That is a fact. No donut, possibly true but that's because its flowing around a corner, not a sharp angle is all but the brass is still flowing easily around that double radiused shoulder. It is also not true about the reason Ackely and Jarrett went with a sharp shoulder angle because of ease of forming. It was for accurate and consistant shoulder location and contact with the chamber for better accuracy results.[/COLOR] Again, THIS IS LONG RANGE HUNTING. Not long range target shooting. Your recommendations need to be as such. Yes target shooters prefer smaller chamberings but I would have to see the spec list of the top shooters in the world to believe that they are shooting the Wby or Ackley. I do not believe that to be true. Would have to see the top shooters spec lists to believe this. Most of the long range records being set are with smaller caliber rounds these days from what I read. [COLOR=#000080]I said the .300 WBY was over bore as well, but also said the other two were somewhat ridiculous. But also said that you needed to be looking at 220 grain and heavier bullets to make sense out of these cases (at one time the Navy was playing around with 300 grain solid tungsten bullets in the .300 Win mag and Weatherby case). Yet a lot of folks are using the .300 WSM case with great results. Seems to be easier to develop loads for, and the powder selection is greater. Now taking notes from Parker Ackley's book, he does point the issues of over bore, verses not being over bore. They are known to be a lot more forgiving in load development. Have a greater barrel life, and tend to group tighter. (an example here is the 6BR and 30BR as both are well known over achievers)[/COLOR] Again, not true. The 300 Wby is not over bore by modern standards. Maybe 30 years ago you had an argument but not today. The term overbore came from back in the day when guys were trying to load a 300 Wby using IMR 4350. That is not the case today. The term is outdated and does not apply to much of anything today with our modern loading powders. Again, your comments about PO Ackleys notes simply point out that your arguments are 30-40 years old and out dated. With the powders he used, YES, with the powders we have today, NO WAY. Again, WE ARE NOT ON 1000 yard BR.com. We are talking about using a rifle that can put the velocity and energy on target at long range to get the job done, not simply the best round for best accuracy on paper at long range. True there are many rounds that may be slightly more accurate then the 300 RUM but in real world big game HUNTING situations at long range, firing rifles from FIELD postions, you will NEVER realize that slight advantage. What you will realize is a heavier bullet, with higher BC value bucking the wind better to the target that is NOT on a shooting range with wind flags and zero angle and when the bullet gets there you will have the advantage of higher retained velocity for better bullet expansion and also higher retained energy loads for better vital tissue distruction. Again, this is LONG RANGE HUNTING. Your reponses should be directed in that way, not for target use or purposes. [COLOR=#000080]First of all I have not bought a gun magazine in about 15 years, and never did trust 90% of the writers (and still would not). I can only think of one magazine that ever used the neck shoulder design issue, and that was Precision Shooting. I can vouch for just about everything those guys published, and many others will as well. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#000080][/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I have read articles on the subject of neck length/shoulder angle and barrel life in Shooting Times, Varmint Hunter, Precision Reloading just to name a few. I will also say I have proven the fact that how a rifle is shot and cleaned is far more important then what its chambered in for barrel life. My lightweight 7mm Allen Magnum which is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design which you say would be ridiculously overbored, has well over 1000 rounds down the bore and still shoots into sub 3/4 moa groups and has taken close to 30 head of big game from 500 to 930 yards with all but two being one shot kills. To your way of thinking, this rifle barrel should have been toast 5 years ago but its simply WRONG. Heat a barrel up and keep shooting and the barrel wear increases expodentially, keep it cool and be religious in that and you will be amazed how long a worthless chambering like this can last for barrel life. Again, we are not talking about 10 shot groups on paper which it seems you are. I am talking about limiting strings to no more then three shots and once that is one, GETTING off paper and doing practical field shooting practice where one shot is all that is taken at any specific range to sharpen your drop chart and your first shot hit skills. I am not a comp shooter. I do not design comp guns, I design big game rifles that flatten big game at very long ranges, not punch holes in paper at very long ranges.[/COLOR] Finally, the OP asked about the 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM or 30-378 Wby, you recommend the 300 WSM and 308 Norma.... Two fine rounds but neither were asked about and the latter is for the most part a dinosaur. How one could recommend it over the 300 Win Mag these days is a mystery to me. As far as your comments about the 300 WSM and if the owner did not like it you could just rebarrel it to something that suited the shooter better. Like what, another WSM which would be your only opinion........ Get the Rem 700 in a 300 RUM, that way if you did not like it, you would actually have options to rebarrel it to anything with a magnum rim diameter down the road, that would included belted magnum or non belted, 100 times more flexible for rebuilding down the road. I do not mean to attack you but all of your advice seems to come from a target shooters background which is fine but it has very little to do with long range BIG GAME HUNTING. True there is cross over to each but when your making claims of the BEST for this and BEST for that, your simply not being factual. Everything you have claimed as being the BEST, I could bring up a dozen points why in fact it is not the best for long range HUNTING. [I][COLOR=#000080][/COLOR][/I] [/QUOTE]
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