300 Varminter Drop and Windage Chart for 600 yards
- Thread starter wildcat
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You guys seriously, why are you continuing to do this on my posts. All I have done is post a drop chart for this particular project. It's like some of you just want to continue to try and cause problems.
There are people that have e-mailed me and are interested in this project. I am trying to post this info for those who might find the info helpful. I haved asked, on many occassions, to please be respectful and stop turning my posts into this crap.
This drop chart shows the lighter lower BC varmint bullets will work very well out to 600 yards. Sure you might have to move your windage knob a little bit more and in some cases barely when in comes to windage. However, I would rather move my windage knob a little than wound an animal or have the bullet continue to travel because it did not fragment.
Once again, I love high BC bullets and use them a great deal in my other rifles. However, for varmint hunting under 800 yrads, I will always use V-Max or Ballistic Tip bullets. I agree, they might not be the best bullet for shooting past 600 yards. However, they are the best bullet when you need the following four important factors when varmint hunting;
1. Accuracy
2. Killing power
3. Splat Factor
4. Fragmentation
There are many people out there who are shooting this rifle with awesome results and many who are having one built. Richard has built over 30 300 Varminters already this year and has more to build. It is an awesome low volume varmint rig. There are people who are interested in this project and that's why I post. They want to hear about it because they read LRH. As I mentioned above, I have received numerous e-mails from people asking about the project and wanting information about it.
W.
There are people that have e-mailed me and are interested in this project. I am trying to post this info for those who might find the info helpful. I haved asked, on many occassions, to please be respectful and stop turning my posts into this crap.
This drop chart shows the lighter lower BC varmint bullets will work very well out to 600 yards. Sure you might have to move your windage knob a little bit more and in some cases barely when in comes to windage. However, I would rather move my windage knob a little than wound an animal or have the bullet continue to travel because it did not fragment.
Once again, I love high BC bullets and use them a great deal in my other rifles. However, for varmint hunting under 800 yrads, I will always use V-Max or Ballistic Tip bullets. I agree, they might not be the best bullet for shooting past 600 yards. However, they are the best bullet when you need the following four important factors when varmint hunting;
1. Accuracy
2. Killing power
3. Splat Factor
4. Fragmentation
There are many people out there who are shooting this rifle with awesome results and many who are having one built. Richard has built over 30 300 Varminters already this year and has more to build. It is an awesome low volume varmint rig. There are people who are interested in this project and that's why I post. They want to hear about it because they read LRH. As I mentioned above, I have received numerous e-mails from people asking about the project and wanting information about it.
W.
piutemike
Well-Known Member
Wildcat, You did not post a drop chart for your project. You posted a drop chart from Exbal, hoping those are the results you will have. You don't even have your project, never fired your project. Get your gun and then talk, we have all heard this stuff 19 times.
Wildcat rerun the drops on the 87gr v-max @3710 with the same conditions and a 200 yard zero. Your original post was 200 yard zero and your second post of 87gr @ 3710 was 100 yard zero. Your numbers in the second post are all messed up 8min drop at 400, and 5 min drop at 500?????
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Im not whining or moaning or falling into your trap of wanting another ****y debate, just gonna repeat my previous statement
"I know the higher BC bullets will give better BC out to 600 yards, but they will not provide the kill power that we varmint hunters love"
Wildcat , do you realize that a high BC bullet retains its velocity and energy much more effectively than a low BC bullet??? by doing this the high BC bullet will actually hit harder at long range than a low BC bullet.
run a 208 hornady at 2900fps and you will see what i mean
"I know the higher BC bullets will give better BC out to 600 yards, but they will not provide the kill power that we varmint hunters love"
Wildcat , do you realize that a high BC bullet retains its velocity and energy much more effectively than a low BC bullet??? by doing this the high BC bullet will actually hit harder at long range than a low BC bullet.
run a 208 hornady at 2900fps and you will see what i mean
Go to this thread it is a list of the other 18 threads ob this very subject and will find the specs of the build and a few drop charts.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f22/how-many-threads-300-varminter-30124/
There is nothing new in the most recent post and you will find in one of the other threads where wildcat promised to not post the same info over and over, but a man of his word he has proven not to be...
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
There are a couple things that make varmints POP when hit. With conventional varmint calibers such as the 223, 22-250, 220 swift and such, you take a very fragible bullet, drive it to very high velocity and when the bullet hits, the bullet has enough kenetic energy that it causes the soft bullets to come apart nearly instantly on the target.
Its not really the kenetic energy itself that caused the P. Dog to explode but it is the Kenetic energy that causes the bullet to come apart and that act is what causes the thin skinned critter to come unglued because the bullet causes a severe hydrostatic shockwave through the animal. Their physical structure can not sustain this amount of hydrostatic shock and litereally comes apart.
The other way is to drive a large diameter bullet through the same critter. In this case, generally expansion is not nearly as dramatic but because the bullet has a MUCH larger frontal area then the smaller conventional varmint calibers, you will still see that POP on varmints. This is not be cause the bullets come part but instead because the larger frontal area bullet displaces so much physical tissue that again, that hydrostatic shock wave is present.
When you take a large diameter bullet and by that I mean from 7mm to 338 when talking about varmint hunting, and add a bit of expansion to it, you get just as dramatic kills and explosions as you would with the smaller calibers. Only at long range, generally the larger diameter bullets do even better because on average they have a higher BC and so they will retain more velocity.
At long range, the smaller caliber bullets really drop off that POP factor, even the best ones. Thats because their energy levels have dropped below the point that causes the bullets to "come apart" and as such they just penetrate as a conventional bullet would. Doing very little to make the smaller critters come apart.
But, you take that larger diameter bullet at long range, it still has that same frontal area and a good amount of retained velocity so it will displace alot more tissue much more quickly then a smaller caliber bullet will and that is why you still see the POPs at longer ranges.
In the case of the 300 WSM loaded to the nuts with a 110 or 125 gr bullet, you get a little of both worlds, dramatic expansion at closer ranges but still good pops at longer ranges.
Some would have you believe this is simply due to the fact that its used with Varming type bullets, well, out to 400 yards that may be the case but past that, the pops are not due to bullet expansion nearly as much as they are a result of bullet diameter.
To that point, the 110 gr V-Max is certainly a varmint bullet. The 125 gr Ballistic Tip IS NOT CLASSIFIED AS A VARMINT BULLET!!! Look it up on the Nosler chart. Its labled as a medium big game bullet designed for use on deer size game and it has a heavy jacket side wall design and a VERY thick base for penetration. It IS NOT designed to come apart on small game in any way. That is from Nosler not me. Now at these velocities, yes it will expand aggressively, no doubt but it is not designed as a varmint bullet as some would have you believe.
Back to long range pops. If you take any thinner jacketed 30 cal bullet or any tipped 30 cal bullet, you will get pops out to very long range on smaller game. In fact if you take any 30 cal bullet and hit a P.dog with it at 300 WSM velocities, you will get dramatic kills. The ability of the 300 WSM to make good kills has very little to do with the varmint bullets being used in it, it simply has to do with the fact its a 30 cal bullet passing through a thin skinned critter whos physical structure can not sustain the tissue displacement caused by this diameter bullet passing through it.
An example of this. I shoot varmints all the time here in Montana. Generally gophers or ground squirrels as many call them. Most of my hunting is done with handguns or small caliber center fire rifles. 22 Hornet, 218 Mashburn, 221 FB class.
We were out last summer popping gophers and at 200 yards there was a few mounds in a small area. Each mount had a couple adults and several little pups sunning themselves.
Pulled out the 221 FB shooting the 40 gr Blitzking at a hair under 3400 fps. Popped a big fat adult off the first mound. Good flip, about 2 feet in the air.
Then just for the hell of it, I pulled out my scoped Ruger Super Redhawk in 44 Mag. This is an exceptionally accurate revolver. I have shot many 6 shot groups at 150 yards that were smaller then 4" and several at 200 yards that were less then 6".
I lined her up on a big adult and let a 300 gr WFN LBT hard cast bullet rip. First shot was just over the gopher. Second landed just under trying to get the hold figured out on such a small target. That gopher hit the den but there were still others on the other mound. Lined up on a big adult who had hunkered down from the noise on top of the mound. The big, SLOW bullet simply made the gopher disappear. One minute it was there, the next it was gone. I did not see this as I was shooting but my dad watched through the spotter. In fact he said I had missed and that the gopher must have hit the den.
Just for the heck of it we walked out to the mounds. The gopher hit by the fireball was gutted pretty good but its body structure was still pretty much intact.
Then we walked over to the other mound and there was nothing but red and green on the top of the mound with bits and pieces of fur here and there. There was a big deep burrowing hole behind the mess so I dug out the fired 300 gr hard cast bullet from the soft dirt. Besides some abrasion on the nose and the rifling marks, you could have reloaded the bullet and shot it again. There was absolutely NO expansion in any way, even from penetrating more then 10" into solid packed dirt.
My point, velocity has alot to do with varmints popping at closer ranges. At longer ranges, its much more of a matter of bullet diameter and tissue displacement then velocity or bullet expansion.
You get a large diameter bullet that expands and you have the best of both worlds, you get a large diameter bullet that expands and has a high BC, you get the best of both worlds terminally and also the easiest combo to hit small targets at long range.
This 300 WSM project does very well for 2 out of the three but it severally lacks on the third aspect of the magical trifecta for long range varmint eradication.
Just my opinion, still the same as alway. If the subject was not posted over and over, we would not respond to it.......
Kirby Allen(50)
Its not really the kenetic energy itself that caused the P. Dog to explode but it is the Kenetic energy that causes the bullet to come apart and that act is what causes the thin skinned critter to come unglued because the bullet causes a severe hydrostatic shockwave through the animal. Their physical structure can not sustain this amount of hydrostatic shock and litereally comes apart.
The other way is to drive a large diameter bullet through the same critter. In this case, generally expansion is not nearly as dramatic but because the bullet has a MUCH larger frontal area then the smaller conventional varmint calibers, you will still see that POP on varmints. This is not be cause the bullets come part but instead because the larger frontal area bullet displaces so much physical tissue that again, that hydrostatic shock wave is present.
When you take a large diameter bullet and by that I mean from 7mm to 338 when talking about varmint hunting, and add a bit of expansion to it, you get just as dramatic kills and explosions as you would with the smaller calibers. Only at long range, generally the larger diameter bullets do even better because on average they have a higher BC and so they will retain more velocity.
At long range, the smaller caliber bullets really drop off that POP factor, even the best ones. Thats because their energy levels have dropped below the point that causes the bullets to "come apart" and as such they just penetrate as a conventional bullet would. Doing very little to make the smaller critters come apart.
But, you take that larger diameter bullet at long range, it still has that same frontal area and a good amount of retained velocity so it will displace alot more tissue much more quickly then a smaller caliber bullet will and that is why you still see the POPs at longer ranges.
In the case of the 300 WSM loaded to the nuts with a 110 or 125 gr bullet, you get a little of both worlds, dramatic expansion at closer ranges but still good pops at longer ranges.
Some would have you believe this is simply due to the fact that its used with Varming type bullets, well, out to 400 yards that may be the case but past that, the pops are not due to bullet expansion nearly as much as they are a result of bullet diameter.
To that point, the 110 gr V-Max is certainly a varmint bullet. The 125 gr Ballistic Tip IS NOT CLASSIFIED AS A VARMINT BULLET!!! Look it up on the Nosler chart. Its labled as a medium big game bullet designed for use on deer size game and it has a heavy jacket side wall design and a VERY thick base for penetration. It IS NOT designed to come apart on small game in any way. That is from Nosler not me. Now at these velocities, yes it will expand aggressively, no doubt but it is not designed as a varmint bullet as some would have you believe.
Back to long range pops. If you take any thinner jacketed 30 cal bullet or any tipped 30 cal bullet, you will get pops out to very long range on smaller game. In fact if you take any 30 cal bullet and hit a P.dog with it at 300 WSM velocities, you will get dramatic kills. The ability of the 300 WSM to make good kills has very little to do with the varmint bullets being used in it, it simply has to do with the fact its a 30 cal bullet passing through a thin skinned critter whos physical structure can not sustain the tissue displacement caused by this diameter bullet passing through it.
An example of this. I shoot varmints all the time here in Montana. Generally gophers or ground squirrels as many call them. Most of my hunting is done with handguns or small caliber center fire rifles. 22 Hornet, 218 Mashburn, 221 FB class.
We were out last summer popping gophers and at 200 yards there was a few mounds in a small area. Each mount had a couple adults and several little pups sunning themselves.
Pulled out the 221 FB shooting the 40 gr Blitzking at a hair under 3400 fps. Popped a big fat adult off the first mound. Good flip, about 2 feet in the air.
Then just for the hell of it, I pulled out my scoped Ruger Super Redhawk in 44 Mag. This is an exceptionally accurate revolver. I have shot many 6 shot groups at 150 yards that were smaller then 4" and several at 200 yards that were less then 6".
I lined her up on a big adult and let a 300 gr WFN LBT hard cast bullet rip. First shot was just over the gopher. Second landed just under trying to get the hold figured out on such a small target. That gopher hit the den but there were still others on the other mound. Lined up on a big adult who had hunkered down from the noise on top of the mound. The big, SLOW bullet simply made the gopher disappear. One minute it was there, the next it was gone. I did not see this as I was shooting but my dad watched through the spotter. In fact he said I had missed and that the gopher must have hit the den.
Just for the heck of it we walked out to the mounds. The gopher hit by the fireball was gutted pretty good but its body structure was still pretty much intact.
Then we walked over to the other mound and there was nothing but red and green on the top of the mound with bits and pieces of fur here and there. There was a big deep burrowing hole behind the mess so I dug out the fired 300 gr hard cast bullet from the soft dirt. Besides some abrasion on the nose and the rifling marks, you could have reloaded the bullet and shot it again. There was absolutely NO expansion in any way, even from penetrating more then 10" into solid packed dirt.
My point, velocity has alot to do with varmints popping at closer ranges. At longer ranges, its much more of a matter of bullet diameter and tissue displacement then velocity or bullet expansion.
You get a large diameter bullet that expands and you have the best of both worlds, you get a large diameter bullet that expands and has a high BC, you get the best of both worlds terminally and also the easiest combo to hit small targets at long range.
This 300 WSM project does very well for 2 out of the three but it severally lacks on the third aspect of the magical trifecta for long range varmint eradication.
Just my opinion, still the same as alway. If the subject was not posted over and over, we would not respond to it.......
Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby, thanks for that excellent response. I don't mind if people want to post, however, posts that are sarcastic, ect don't need to be posted. Your post is very educational and I have always agreed with you on just about everything. You are very knowledgeable and helpful, and I appreciate your comments. I understand my rifle wont be the best for shooting varmints past 600 yards, however, it should do one hell of a job out to that range.
I have also decided to make this rifle into a switch barrel rig. I was going to build a seperate rifle for shooting the VLD type bullets for longer range shots. Because my 300 Varminter is set up on the Nesika Model K Action with the short magnum bolt face, I decided to order another 30 cal barrel and make this rig a switch barrel rifle. I am going to have Richard Chamber this barrel for a regular 300 WSM and have the barrel throated for the 190grn VLD, 208grn A-Max and 210grn VLD bullets. The barrel will be a Bartlien 30" 1-10 twist, 1.250 straight cylinder. I thought a switch barrel rifle would be the better way to go. I would have the best of both worlds, the 110grn V-Max's for the 500 yard shots and then switch over to the other barrel and shoot the 208 A-Max, 190 and 210 Berger for the 1000 to 1500 yard shots.
W.
I have also decided to make this rifle into a switch barrel rig. I was going to build a seperate rifle for shooting the VLD type bullets for longer range shots. Because my 300 Varminter is set up on the Nesika Model K Action with the short magnum bolt face, I decided to order another 30 cal barrel and make this rig a switch barrel rifle. I am going to have Richard Chamber this barrel for a regular 300 WSM and have the barrel throated for the 190grn VLD, 208grn A-Max and 210grn VLD bullets. The barrel will be a Bartlien 30" 1-10 twist, 1.250 straight cylinder. I thought a switch barrel rifle would be the better way to go. I would have the best of both worlds, the 110grn V-Max's for the 500 yard shots and then switch over to the other barrel and shoot the 208 A-Max, 190 and 210 Berger for the 1000 to 1500 yard shots.
W.
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I have to ask the question then. Why not just use a 1-10 barrel. The 110 gr V-max would be out of the equation but the 125 gr Ballistic Tip WILL handle anything you could throw at it velocity wise in a 1-10 and it will never come apart. Its thick sidewalls and base will handle anything you can push it to unlike the thin jacketed V-Max.
That way you could have two different loads, one a close to moderate range varmint load with the 125 gr BT to say 3800 fps and a long range varmint, big game load with the 190 gr VLD as well?
Guess I tend to be practical to the boring point but just had to ask the question.
Yes, you would have to drop some velocity off your 125 gr BT load but as you stated 600 yards max, you will never notice the difference between 3800 and 4000 fps at 600 yards or less.
Anyway, just get the **** rifle and tell us how it shoots and this issue will be laid to rest!!
Kirby Allen(50)
That way you could have two different loads, one a close to moderate range varmint load with the 125 gr BT to say 3800 fps and a long range varmint, big game load with the 190 gr VLD as well?
Guess I tend to be practical to the boring point but just had to ask the question.
Yes, you would have to drop some velocity off your 125 gr BT load but as you stated 600 yards max, you will never notice the difference between 3800 and 4000 fps at 600 yards or less.
Anyway, just get the **** rifle and tell us how it shoots and this issue will be laid to rest!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Yea, I can see your point, I just really want to shoot that 110grn V-Max for varmints out to 600 yards and see how it works. Like I said, I never really get to shoot past a 1000 yards. We shoot to around 600 yards in the area where we go after varmints. However, my buddies and I are planning on a couple of Pdog trips to Wyoming, Montana and South Dakota. So, I am going to be able to shoot well over a 1000 yards. I know the wind is going to be blowing out there and my little 110grn V-Max is not going to cut it even at the shorter ranges like 400 and 500.
I would like to shoot the 190 Berger VLD, 208grn A-Max and 210 Berger VLD out of this barrel. Would the 1-11 twist be a better twist rate for those bullets? Kirby, I really do appreciate your help and I am truley sorry that things ever got heated between us. It was really stupid, and I am sorry for my part.
I know, I need to get my rifle. I promise it's being built as we speak and should be completed by next week. I just got done talking to Richard about making the 300 Varminter into a switch barrel rifle, so I know it's close to completion.
W. *
I would like to shoot the 190 Berger VLD, 208grn A-Max and 210 Berger VLD out of this barrel. Would the 1-11 twist be a better twist rate for those bullets? Kirby, I really do appreciate your help and I am truley sorry that things ever got heated between us. It was really stupid, and I am sorry for my part.
I know, I need to get my rifle. I promise it's being built as we speak and should be completed by next week. I just got done talking to Richard about making the 300 Varminter into a switch barrel rifle, so I know it's close to completion.
W. *
I don't think that we need thread number 20 on the same subject over and over with the same info...
Kirby,
Nice shootin' with the 44! Since it fits into the topic, I'll ask a question about the rifle you're building me. How far away will prarie dogs go pop if shot with the 200 grain 7mm wildcat, started around 2950 fps?? A mile? MORE? Oh yeah, I'm at 6000 feet.
Nice shootin' with the 44! Since it fits into the topic, I'll ask a question about the rifle you're building me. How far away will prarie dogs go pop if shot with the 200 grain 7mm wildcat, started around 2950 fps?? A mile? MORE? Oh yeah, I'm at 6000 feet.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Wildcat
I know you have caught a lot of flack about your biuld and it doesent matter
what anyone thinks as long as you are happy with it and it performs like
you expect.
I am in the autumn of my years (OLD) and being somewhat conservative I was
wondering why you picked a "very" high pressure round for extended shooting
such as P Dogs? Again I'm not questioning your choice just wondering .
My experience with high pressure special chamberings has not been pleasant so
I have tried to find a cartrige that will reach my needs (velocity,energy,range,
trajectory and accuracy with reasonable pressures and case/barrel life.
Velocity is like horsepower the higher you get the more it cost and the more
problems you will have. and there is always someone that will have more or
at least claim to.
Just to show my point I was looking at the trajectory of my 7mmRUM with 120gr
balistic tips and it is identical to your load to 600yards at a reasonable velocity
of 3700ft/sec (I have exceeded 3800 but begain to show pressure signs so I
backed off) and it is a standard chambering with reasonable barrel life.
I use 160gr accubonds but the round is capable if I wanted to use it for vermin.
Any way I hope your project turns out well and doesent cause you to much
trouble
Good Luck
J E CUSTOM
I know you have caught a lot of flack about your biuld and it doesent matter
what anyone thinks as long as you are happy with it and it performs like
you expect.
I am in the autumn of my years (OLD) and being somewhat conservative I was
wondering why you picked a "very" high pressure round for extended shooting
such as P Dogs? Again I'm not questioning your choice just wondering .
My experience with high pressure special chamberings has not been pleasant so
I have tried to find a cartrige that will reach my needs (velocity,energy,range,
trajectory and accuracy with reasonable pressures and case/barrel life.
Velocity is like horsepower the higher you get the more it cost and the more
problems you will have. and there is always someone that will have more or
at least claim to.
Just to show my point I was looking at the trajectory of my 7mmRUM with 120gr
balistic tips and it is identical to your load to 600yards at a reasonable velocity
of 3700ft/sec (I have exceeded 3800 but begain to show pressure signs so I
backed off) and it is a standard chambering with reasonable barrel life.
I use 160gr accubonds but the round is capable if I wanted to use it for vermin.
Any way I hope your project turns out well and doesent cause you to much
trouble
Good Luck
J E CUSTOM
