30 WOLF

[Guest]

HOWdy CrowMag

Because of this issue called CG offset (think bullet imbalance) There are no plans to make P.T. .338 bullets. The fact is that, it is easier to manufacture a .30 cal boatail with exceptional accuracy. I would like to see more choices for .338's.

I think a 280 gr. A-Max would be a great place to start. The powdered tungsten cores are so superior in terminal effect at low impact velocities, I still prefer the 30 cal.

I know that the 30's and the 338's both have enough energy to kill out to 2,000 yds. I also know that the older I get the less desire I have to carry a rifle with a barrel over 32" in length.

There is a law of diminishing returns in effect, when you already have enough power to get the job done. As you increase barrel length, you also decrease accuracy, especially if the overall weight of the system stays the same.

The flatness of trajectory and superior accuracy of the Wolf make it a better tool for one shot kills if you want something that weighs less than 17.5 lbs., will fit in a drag bag and go anywhere.

 

[texas]

S1, yes that was the question I was asking. Say ranges of 600 out to 1000 yards.

Brent, I thought that I was going crazy

but, I double checked and there is a 250gr SMK listed in Sierra's 2002 catalog #2650 for the .338. Now I don't have to go to the funny farm

.

S1 how would the wolf perform with a 26-28" barrel? The 280 PT sounds like it would fit the bill very nicely can you push the powers that be in that direction?

 

[Guest]

Texas

These results will suprise you. I can not find a Matchking on Sierra's Web site for 250 grains. But I did the comparison based on a 250 grain projectile in .338 with a b.c. of .600, and I think this is generous.

The numbers listed below are the Muzzle Velocity in feet per second that you must fire the .338 bullet with a b.c. of .600 to equal the Wolf's performance in 3 catagories: ENERGY, DROP, and WIND DEFLECTION IN A 10 MPH cross wind.


600 YARDS

ENERGY - 3,470 FPS.

DROP - 3,250 FPS.

WIND DEFLECTION - 4,440 FPS. FOUR THOUSAND NOT A TYPO


1000 YARDS

ENERGY - 3,710 FPS.

DROP - 3,350 FPS.

WIND DEFLECTION - 4,600 FPS.

The Wolf fires a 253 gr. pt projectile with a b.c. of .860 that rises to .880 at about 600 yds.

At 600 yds. it has retained 3,340 ft. lbs. of energy, dropped 74 in. from the bore line, and only been deflected 11.2" by a 10 mph wind.

At 1,000 yds. the Wolf has retained 2,480 ft. lbs. of energy, dropped 230 in. from the bore line, and deflected 35" in a 10 mph wind.

A practical analysis shows that the .338 could shoot as flat as a Wolf out to 1,000 yards without going too much longer on the barrel. Both cartridges have enough energy at 1,000 to kill deer sized game very efficiently, but the Wolf has quite an advantage, both in energy delivered and terminal effect with a powdered core.

The real dealmaker comes when you have to produce a good shot in the wind. the .338 250 has no chance of approaching the wind performance of the Wolf no matter how long a barrel you hang on the rifle.

Since the NUMBER 1 cause of a miss at long range is wind deflection, you can see why I carry the Wolf when its time to make Ultra long shots, or even long shots in difficult conditions.

There are already 280 and 300 grain bullets, but they are flat base designs and used for subsonic work out of SR-25's.

[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[texas]

Ok, maybe I'm on my way to the funny farm

. I checked the Sierrabullets website and couldn't find that 250gr MK but its listed in the catalog with a stock #.
Those are some very impressive results. The 280 and 300 grainer that are subsonic, how would hold up at a higher velocity? I know tha you said that you like the big 30 cals, I've always been a fan of the big heavy fast as you can throw it type. Feel that if the wolf can perform very well from a 26-28" barrel that it could be a near future project.
What type of optics are you using or suggesting on the rigs that you build? How fast would you have to push a 300grMk to equal the wolf (if possible) at the 600 and 1000 yard ranges?
How easy is it for the civilan world to get the pts and does one find loading data for it?

 

[Guest]

[ 12-31-2002: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[Guest]

Texas

The 300 grainer needs to be a boatail, that is more than 2 years away.

The 5.5 X 22 NXS R2 is the scope designed for this system, and is highly recommended.

The 300 MK can equal or exceed the Wolf at close range in energy: wind deflection and trajectory are a different story. DC would be able to tell you how long a barrel is needed to push a 300 over 3,200 fps. and I will bet it is significantly longer and heavier. We just have not built any .338 Lapuas longer than 32".

The .338 will not equal the accuracy of the Wolf, if they were even close accuracy wise to the good 30 cals, their ballistics would allow them to dominate 1,000 yd. competitions. That is just not the case. The better gun builders get the more you see small calibers show up in the record books. As you approach perfection on the gun side, removing most of the "gun induced" error sources, the bigger percentage bullet CG offset is, in the total remaining error. This is where the small calibers have an advantage, and it has begun to show on the record. I believe this trend will continue for paper punchers.


The 28" barrel will loose about 60 fps. with a 253 gr. and about 80 fps. with a 210 gr. bullet.

Powdered Tungsten bullets will be available in the very near future, at a reasonable cost. I will publish the loading data for these bullets when they come available.

By the way, whats a funny farm look like on the inside, my wife says I need to pick a nice one out, and soon.

 

[texas]

Some people call it Texas but, I call it CALIFORNIA

. Think I'm starting to get it bigger isn't always better!
Really would like to see what one of those pts look like whole and cut in half any way to post a pic or is it sill a little classified

.

 

[Guest]

Texas

Yes, it is possible to get some pictures posted of the outside. I could stand up a 253 next to a 210 JLK, they are almost the same length, but the 253 has a smaller meplat and a more intricate boatail design. No they are not classified, just who gets shot with them. I would have to get permission to show the inside, the core tech, and boatail stuff is patented. But there are a few out there that have no respect for the law, so you may not get a lot of info on the construction of the internals, until they get released to the public. I know there are some 1,000 yard shooters of some prominence that have shot some prototypes, before some of the core balance issues were worked out.

Bigger is always better if your target is way bigger, and way the hell past 2,000 yards, and you have a pack mule with a spinal growth closely resembling the top of a tri-pod with a mechanical rest sitting on top!

It helps if you train your pack mule to point pheasants, there by achieving true tri-pod configuration, and you keep a dead pheasant in a zip-loc bag, so you can unzip the bag and throw it infront of the mule (preferably upwind) right before you need to shoot!

Seriously, it all depends on how far, how heavy, what size target, how much time, and your own personal style, its all good!

[ 12-31-2002: Message edited by: S1 ]

[ 12-31-2002: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[texas]

S1,STL_Shooter what brass are you using or having the best results with in making the wolf? Also why do you prefer the 5.5-22 NXS over all the other optics available? Is the 1 in 11 twist the best choice for twist rates. Knowing that you have tested various barrels have you ever tried the polygonal rifling types?

 

[Guest]

S1--
Your rifle sounds alot like mine and Darryl's .300 Tomahawks, except I can get the same performance from a lowly Remington 700 actioned rifle, at about a third of the cost of building on a custom action...
Also, could you explain your post on you and your buddy shooting SIX antelope in Wyoming this year? ALL(except a few doe tags) Wyoming Antelope tags are lottery draw, and each individual is only allowed one tag..
And since party hunting is illegal in Wyoming, how did you and your buddy kill SIX?
I hunt in Wyoming every year and feel lucky to get one Antelope tag--please tell me how to get more than one....

 

[Guest]

Chris

You obviously have not hunted much in Wyoming, or you don't talk to your Game management people too much. For area 14 we each bought a buck tag at the State headquarters, and two over the counter tags at the local store, per hunter, for doe (female) antelope, for a grand total of SIX. Your party hunting comment will be ignored for obvious reasons. If you need more evidence E-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you the Video tape for free.

I am sure your Tomahawk is a fine rifle. I do not consider the Rem 700 a lowly action, but I doubt it is the equal of a Wolf on a Nesika action, if I am WRONG AND IT IS BETTER THAN A WOLF, then post some targets shot at long range or short range so we can all learn how you developed a 1/4 MOA rifle for so little money. Or keep taking cheap shots with misinformation and maybe you and I can meet in Wyoming and shoot for Ten Grand or so on targets about a mile away. I'll even bet a guy like Wyo or DC would fly out to moderate for a small fee. Wouldn't that be fun? Your Tomahawk against my Wolf? No cheap shots, just you and I pulling the trigger for lots of money. Buy yourself one hell of a range finder and live for reading mirage, I might even ask the Governor of Wyoming to come by, I hear he is an Avid shooter himself.

Even if you don't want a copy of the antelope video, Email me anyway and I will send you the stock your looking for, I have 4 of them that have been taken off for the carbon fiber variety.

[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Texas,

The Lapua brass is the choice of anyone interested in tiny groups, long-lasting primer pockets and the ability to load on the higher end of the pressure envelope...

The 5.5-22 allows (on my scope) approximately 90 MOA of vertical adjustment. The higher power NXSs don't have nearly that much...

As far as best twist, S1 tells me the 11 won't stabilize a 240 MK, although I'm going to have to try. So, whether it's the "best" choice or not, well, it's all about what you want to shoot...

 

[Guest]

.Chris

Perhaps you would be kind enough to post the total cost of your Tomahawk so we can compare facts rather than insinuations. I think the Tomahawk is a great rife for someone on a budget, or someone who has the right boltface and wants to push the limits on a switch barrel gun that he has other barrels for in the same boltface.

I is riduculous and misleading to claim that your rifle is 1/3 the cost of a Wolf. The group I shot That Stl_Shooter posted a pic of was shot off a bipod with a less than optimum rear bag. I will bet a lot of money that the performance of these rifles is not equal.

QUOTE

"except I can get the same performance from a lowly Remington 700 actioned rifle, at about a third of the cost of building on a custom action..."

You mislead people with foolish statements like this, quite frankly I would expect a Moderator to behave in a more professional manner. As far as the antelope issue, you admitted you already knew how 2 guys could shoot 6 antelope.

So why make the insinuation?

Why not ask a straight forward question like "Was that one buck and two does a piece, or is there a way to shoot more than one buck legally?"

Personally, I love to shoot for something, even if it is for just a beer, seems to bring out the best in people. We have a saying, "PRESSURE AIN'T A BAD THING, IT WILL MAKE DIAMONDS OUT OF COAL."

I would look forward to shooting with you in Wyoming, or Memphis as you and I are only about 6 hours apart. Maybe we could get together and compare the Tomahawk to the Wolf at 600 yards or farther and publish the targets on the web for everyone to analyze. All of the shooting I do with the big stuff is off a bipod, and I think that bipods get a bad rap as far as accuracy goes. With a good rear bag and the right technique they routinely shoot under 1/3 MOA.

Again,I think it is always easier to get facts with straight forward questions rather than insinuations. Your stock will be forthcoming, as soon as I get a shipping address. Take care and good luck with your Tomahawk.

 

[Guest]

S1--
The cost rundown on the Tomahawk is as follows-
Donor action--$399
Stock/Pillars/Bedding goodies--$289
Trigger--$195(could be omitted on a tight budget in lieu of a factory unit)
Hart Barrel--$300
Machine work-$250
$1257 total--About the cost of a Nesika Action...
Admittedly, not 1/3 the cost of a full Nesika Bay custom rifle, but it is more in line with the budget of the average guy putting a rifle together. Take into account that most guys already have a magnum boltface action of come sort on an existing rifle and $195 of the cost was a Jewell trigger.
There's the facts on the cost of the rifle.

As far as the insinuations go about the Antelope, let me be the first to apoligize--- after rereading my post, I see where it sounded that way...

I have a 600 yard range about 5 minutes from the house--If you pass thru Memphis, let me know--I'll be glad to take you to the club. We can shoot farther, but its a little longer drive.If we can get together in Cody, a dinner at the Irma Hotel (Buffalo Bill's Original Hotel) is a good wager...I think Ric may even want in on that one...
My address has been sent to you via email... Thanks for the stock...

[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: Chris Jamison ]