30-06???

[308175]

It cracks me up to see so many posters so many times say their magnum has does this and their magnum has done that.

I had a 30-378 many years ago that shot a 3/4" group at 330 yards........ Once. I could sit here and tell all you users that the 30-378 is one of the most accurate cases ever dreamed up. But I would be lying through my keyboard as the peice of junk only did it once out of dozens and dozens of groups fired.

What is the point?

The point is, all case designs have potential. Some more than others. Out of all my rifles I have owned over my lifetime I have found some to shoot more 3/4" groups at 330 yards than others.

The rifle cartridge that always stands out in my mind as a day in and day out good grouper is the 308. I have had alot of 'good' days with my 308's and alot of bad days with my 3006's and super mags and wild cats. Factory pipes and custom pipes, the 308 has always sent me home from the range happy when others made me scream more times than not.

Again, it isnt that others are not capable, just that the 308 seems to shoot good groups more often than alot of other big mags and even the famed 3006.

 

[roughneck]

The 300 savage is very close in design to the 308 win. Short and stocky. How is it not about case design?

The 300 savage has less capacity than the 308 but the 308 is an 80# anchor.

I am confused.

The confusion lies in the fact that I am not blind enough to brag about the Divine Accuracy of my 300 savage... it's a rifle I gave 150 dollars for as a favor to my friend....while so many brain-washed gun-huggers adore their 308s. and...case capacity doesn't have anything to do with it, it is, IF ANYTHING, case design.

And, if one wanted to get technical, a 7mm SAUM has significantly less capacity than a 7mm WSM, however, it requires less MOA adjustment to do the same job at the same range.

There are hundreds of calibers that would outperform the 308 at any range to 1000 and some far beyond.

I just don't know how anyone could settle for a .308 when the 7-08 outperforms it in every way... and don't even get me started on what a 260 can do with a 120 gr. bullet.

Just some words from the open-minded

TEX

 

[roughneck]

It cracks me up to see so many posters so many times say their magnum has does this and their magnum has done that.

I had a 30-378 many years ago that shot a 3/4" group at 330 yards........ Once. I could sit here and tell all you users that the 30-378 is one of the most accurate cases ever dreamed up. But I would be lying through my keyboard as the peice of junk only did it once out of dozens and dozens of groups fired.

What is the point?

The point is, all case designs have potential. Some more than others. Out of all my rifles I have owned over my lifetime I have found some to shoot more 3/4" groups at 330 yards than others.

The rifle cartridge that always stands out in my mind as a day in and day out good grouper is the 308. I have had alot of 'good' days with my 308's and alot of bad days with my 3006's and super mags and wild cats. Factory pipes and custom pipes, the 308 has always sent me home from the range happy when others made me scream more times than not.

Again, it isnt that others are not capable, just that the 308 seems to shoot good groups more often than alot of other big mags and even the famed 3006.

Not to disagree... but I think that's a recoil and flinching issue.

TEX

 

[Michael Eichele]

The confusion lies in the fact that I am not blind enough to brag about the Divine Accuracy of my 300 savage... it's a rifle I gave 150 dollars for as a favor to my friend....while so many brain-washed gun-huggers adore their 308s. and...case capacity doesn't have anything to do with it, it is, IF ANYTHING, case design.

And, if one wanted to get technical, a 7mm SAUM has significantly less capacity than a 7mm WSM, however, it requires less MOA adjustment to do the same job at the same range.

There are hundreds of calibers that would outperform the 308 at any range to 1000 and some far beyond.

I just don't know how anyone could settle for a .308 when the 7-08 outperforms it in every way... and don't even get me started on what a 260 can do with a 120 gr. bullet.

Just some words from the open-minded

TEX

I agree whole heartedly. Everything you just stated is my point. Case design is important. 708, 260, 308, 300 savage, 300 WSM, 7WSM, 7SAUM, 300SAUM, 6.5x284 all have one thing in common. They are short and stocky. They also "seem" like they are much less finicky than long skinny ones. They all shoot great. Just because some "outperform" others doesnt meen the others are junk. Including the 30-06. You didnt "settle" on the 300 savage and I didnt "settle" on the 308 because the 708 outshines them in every way. It doesnt. It may in some ways but not all ways. If you want to beat the 308 using a smaller bullet in the same case is barking up the wrong tree. The 300 SAUM or WSM "outperforms" the 308 in every way.....We chose the calibers we did because they shoot nicely. The guys that chose the 260's and 708's chose them because they also shoot nicely.

I hope you know I wasnt saying case capacity alone is responsible for the accuracy potential. I have always maintained that the design is important. I only stated volume in my last post because you say how worthless a 308 is and drops like a 80# anchor but the 300 savage is worthy of your recognition despite dropping even more due to less powder capacity.

Is using a system that works "brainwashed'? Hardley.

BTW, I would love to get you started on the 260 with 120's versus the 308.

Enough about all these fine cartridges, the original question in this thread was why the 308 was more popular on the LR scene than the '06 which is faster than the 308. Not about he 300 savage or 708 etc......

 

[Bravo 4]

If you already have a 30-06 then put a good scope on it and go shoot. A 30-06 has slightly better external ballistics then a .308. With a factory rifle you have a 50/50 chance of it shooting worth a crap so it doesn't matter which cartridge it's chambered in. And just because it shoots, say a 4" group with one load doesn't mean it won't put the next load you try into one hole. Only one way to find out.

 

[308175]

Not to disagree... but I think that's a recoil and flinching issue.

TEX

You dont even have a leg to stand on here to offer that opinion. You have no clue what kind of equipment I was using or my shooting background.

My 30-378 was of a moderate weight and utilized a quality brake. So did my 3006. The felt recoil was less in these rifles than my 308's without brakes.

My 300 WSM's dont behave like my 30-378. In fact they behave more like my 308's despite the fact that without brakes, my 300 WSM's kick me harder than my 308 as well as my 30-378 that sported a brake.

 

[steve smith]

Carramrod

As stated by Bravo 4

You already have the 06, so use it!

If what you say is true then why shortly after the military adopted the 308, military match shooters broke every record the 30-06 held using the newly designed 308?

Accuracy has alot to do with barrels, action squareness yes. But it doesnt stop there. Case design is involved as well. Long skinny cases are less efficient and more finicky than short stocky ones. The 30-06 is conciderably longer than the 308 in porportion to its diameter. It isnt nil.

Anybody who claims a 308 isnt any more accurate inherently than the 06 has never spend much time using both side by side.

My statement

"The less powder a cartridge uses the easier it is to get each shot (velocity) the same as the last, but the difference between the 308 and 30-06 is virtualy nil. "

I still stand by that statement. The the variation in velocity from shot to shot or ease/difficulty of finding a consistant load between the two is virtualy nil.

As to the newly adopted 308 breaking all the 06 records. Well that wasn't necessarliy because of the 308s "inherent" accuracy. It is now known that the weapons used in comparison were not built to the same standard. The 06's were built and chambered to older "looser" specs, and the 308's were built to much tighter tolerances. Not only that but the weapons used to compare the two were not the same in quality or age. The 308's were newly manufactured while the 06s were vintage battle weapons that had seen action.

So why then is it so surprising the 308 came out on top. Well it's not!

Now as i said before, if both weapons are built to the same spec with identical neck and throat dimentions, useing identical components, the only difference would be velocity. I still stand by that assertion.

Now, I may very well be wrong in that assertion, but I don't think I am. Again, that's a personal opinion!

To say that one is more Inherently accurate is to say that a 308 would always be more accurate than a 06, which I think any reasonable person would agreed that that's just not true.

There is where I leave my opinions.

Now, the reason the military was so eager to adopt the 308 lies more in the fact that they found a lighter more compact cartridge that could utilize a lighter more compact weapon with less recoil and @ modern pressures there was only a slight decrease in velocity. The 308 was replaced by the 223 (a 400m weapon), not because the 223 was inherently more accurate, but because the design parameter of the 7.62 being an 800m weapon was found to be more than what most shots in battle would be. The 06 was origionaly design to be an 1100yd (approx 1000m) weapon, then it to fell victom to changes to the required range in battle being shortened to 800m. Why carry an 1000m weapon when you only need and 800m weapon, then why carry an 800m weapon when you really only need a 400m weapon.

Not only that, but the military desired a smaller lighter cartridge to maximize the number of rounds that a soldier could carry.

 

[roughneck]

I believe that all military and "weapons" talk should kindly refer itself to sniper's hide.

This is longrangeHUNTING.com

Not even the Kodiak Bear carries a firearm...as unkind as he may be, it not a war when hunting in the field...

 

[Michael Eichele]

Steve,

That is a very good post and very much true. That is a post I can very much respect.

Yes we will have a difference of opinion on certain subjects some of which are found here. That is not important. What is important is that this is a good thread and shares a wide variety of thoughts, opinions as well as facts.

I still stand by my opinions but my opinions also include that both cartridges offer excellent service to their user for the purposes they were designed for.

 

[AJ Peacock]

If you already have a 30-06 then put a good scope on it and go shoot. A 30-06 has slightly better external ballistics then a .308. With a factory rifle you have a 50/50 chance of it shooting worth a crap so it doesn't matter which cartridge it's chambered in. And just because it shoots, say a 4" group with one load doesn't mean it won't put the next load you try into one hole. Only one way to find out.

+1, if it shoots well; Shoot it!

If you have to rebarrel it, then please do yourself a favor and choose something better than the 308. In the .30 cal world, I'd choose the 300WSM unless I needed a BIG boomer, then I'd choose the 300RUM.

Good luck,
AJ

 

[steve smith]

I believe that all military and "weapons" talk should kindly refer itself to sniper's hide.

This is longrangeHUNTING.com

Not even the Kodiak Bear carries a firearm...as unkind as he may be, it not a war when hunting in the field...

Roughneck

I aplogize if I offended you.

With all do respect, I use all my hunting rifles to kill, and by definition any instrument or tool used to kill is a weapon.

Doesn't really matter what your killing.

Then again, I'm one who refuses to try to be politicaly correct. I don't say "I took, I harvested, or I got a deer". I call a spade "a spade" and I say "I killed a deer".


Nobody should be scared to call things as they are, and whether or not a firearm is used to kill animals, people, or paper, the fact still remains that all firearms are weapons.





Michael Eichele

I'm glad you enjoyed the exchange, so did I.

And just so you know, It was never my intention to change anyones opinion on anything. You've formed your opinion on your own findings from your own experiences, and I really respect that.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Michael Eichele

I'm glad you enjoyed the exchange, so did I.

And just so you know, It was never my intention to change anyones opinion on anything. You've formed your opinion on your own findings from your own experiences, and I really respect that.

Thank you Steve. I know sometimes I also open my mouth and insert my foot. For example, I use "inherent accuracy" way too loosely and too often when I should phrase that particular term with other more realistic terms such as "forgiving" or "easy to operate" or even "less finicky".

My thought on the 30-06 vs 308 debate also includes the fact that because the 308 and '06 are so close in performance and one is a long action and the other is a short action that if guys go with a long action they may as well go with a 300 WM or 300 Wby mag. If they want less recoil and dont want to burn as much powder, then that leaves the '06 and the 308. again one being a short action and the other being a long action and that leads us back to since they are so close the advantages of the short action overshadow the few FPS the '06 has to offer. If you need more speed than the 308, you go to a long action and again, you may as well take advantage of that long action by going alot bigger. Now that we have SAUM's and WSM's the short action lovers have much more to choose from.

 

[roninflag]

where did c ramrod go?

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Well, since everyone's had a big group hug and made up, I feel much safer diving in here. Actually, there's several posters here that have all made good points. Michael is absolutely right in his comments about the 308 being inherently more accurate than the 30-06. This is true right down the line, and case capacity absolutely has a direct relationship to inherent accuracy. A 30-378 is inherently less accurate than a 300 Win mag, which is inherently less accurate than a 30-06, which is inherently less accurate than a 308. This is not to say that the bigger cartridges can't shoot, as they most certainly can. It's just a matter of them taking a bit more work, more care and effort to achieve the similar results. Somewhere around here I've got a prinout of Remington's accuracy records from their custom shop on the 40-X target rifles. Bear in mind that these records were the results of literally several hundred guns in each caliber, all otherwise identical save for chambering. There was a very direct linear correlation between case capacity and average group size over thousands of rifles. Interesting, but not necessarily a deciding factor for me. If I were to build up a LR hunting rifle, I'd want something that could deliver the goods at distance, and accuracy is just one factor in this matter.

As for the 308s adoption by the military, there were several who hit right close to the x-ring here; it had to do more wioth a shorter cartridge which allowed a shorter action and thus a more compact weapon. While you and I may see a 308 as have just a few grains less powder and a slightly smaller case than the '06, we're not loading tens of millions of rounds (literally) every day of the week. That few extra grains of powder adds up pretty quickly with numbers like this! Consider that during the height of our Vietnam involvement, Lake City was turning out roughly 21 million rounds of 5.56mm ammo every day. At that point, LC was one of 12 (as I recall) Army Ammunition Plants across the country. Yeah, it adds up fast.

Good topic, though, and a lot of intersting posts in this thread!

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets