280AI won't chamber

I am working on getting my 280AI off the ground you might say. I've been fireforming Hornady 280 brass and doing a 2nd firing with midrange AI loads. Prior to my last session I was prepping the 1st fired rounds that yielded me the headspace of 2.116 to 2.118. I resized and primed them and prior to powder and bullet I checked each one to make sure they would chamber. All passed that test. Next I put the powder and 162 gr Hornady SPBT bullet in just off the lands about .020. Now comes the problem. All the rounds were successfully shot and yielded a final headspacing of 2.117 to 2.1175 except one. See picture below showing the loaded round that would not chamber next to a successfully 2nd fired casing. When measured with the Hornady headspace tool it still shows to be 2.116 where it started. I am not sure but it looks like a false shoulder may be showing. Also, the shoulder looks messed up . Is it possible that when I rammed the bullet in the brass, the die possibly caused the false shoulder or the sort of flattening of the shoulder? I am using the Redding 280AI dies along with the .014 Redding competition shell holder.
Your shoulder is collapsing when you seat the bullet. Soft brass. I have a 338 rigby improved and the only brass I can use is Norma. I tried a box of Hornady and I had 25% loss rate While necking them down because the shoulder would collapse with the Hornady brass. I understand you are limited with the 280 but Winchester makes the nickel plated 280 cases. Also both Nosler and Hornady make ready made 280AI. The Winchester and fireform or the Nosler would be my choice. Good luck!!!
 
Curious to know what reamer your gunsmith has and what used to chamber the rifle. There's the Nosler ".280 Ackley Improved" (SAAMI) version, then there's the original Ackley Improved version of the cartridge. It will be important to find out which .280 Ackley Improved that the rifle is chambered in; SAAMI or original. The original .280 Ackley Improved used the parent case of .280 Remington @ a case length of 2.540 thousandths. The Nosler (SAAMI) .280 Ackley Improved cartridge that is being produced has a case length of 2.525 thousandths of an inch; a .015 thousandths of an inch difference in length. If you are using the original .280 Ackley Improved dies in the SAAMI chamber the brass is .015 thousandths longer and jamming the shoulder back. Or you could have the incorrect dies for the chamber in your rifle; what are you using for dies?. The dies have to match the chamber of the rifle or.....you will go crazy trying to figure out what is going on with the fire firefoming for this rifle. I suspect that this is confusing, thank Nolser for this mess!! A year or so back I was going to build a .280 Ackley Improved until I ran into this confusion, built a .270 Ackely instead.
This is the original Ackley chamber. I had a choice and opted for the original. The dies are Redding along with a .014 competition shell holder that is supposed to make it work right. This is my first Ackley. I originally was going regular 280 and I was swayed on this site to go AI. I have reloaded for years. I am by no means any kind of expert. I've read some of these posts and there are some terms and words I'm not familiar with. The case length on the one that wont chamber is 2.615, it might have been 2.616 prior to trimming. I have reloaded the suspect case and it will chamber now.
 
I have encountered and sub sequentially over come these issiues and without going into associated neck tensioning issiues the use of appropriate bushings all of which have been addressed on this web post.
To that End I will offer up my thoughts.

Observations
This case where the neck and shoulder meet is obviously deformed and therefore rendered unusable !

This can be the result of over or under lubing your case, or exerting too much pressure on your press during the bullet seating operation.
My guess is that judging from your photograph in which your case shows no discoloring , normally a bluish- brown color which may extend above or below the area where the case neck and shoulder meet your cases have been annealed without reaching the correct temperature which would result in an inconsistent neck hardening during your annealing process! ( i believe that your estimation the of time in the flame as well as the flames intensity are themselves your villain's)
It would appear that your culprit is your annealing process and the time your brass cases are being annealed !
I suspect that you reevaluate your entire annealing process as your accompanying photograph indicates.
Please Read On .
Questions :


1) Are you using templiaq 700 high temperature paste?
2) Are you annealing by hand , or by using a machine?
3) Are you using brass from the same lot# , and the same manufacturer ?
Answers:

1): Templiaq 700 degree paste will tell you how much dwell time is actually needed in order to achieve and maintain proper annealing temperature. Yes it is expensive but if you are using a machine for annealing you only need to set up your dwell once. ( brass cases different sizes and calibers will need to be adjusted accordingly )

2): If you are annealing by hand you will achieve inconsistent temperatures which will result in your cases necks exhibiting signs much like your FL resized brass sample .
Tempilaq will get you a constant temperature simply by its discoloring and subsequent melting at the correct temperature.
This will require you to either brush each rifle case neck , or keep a close count on several dipped cases in order to establish a mean time while annealing.
Example lets say you have coated two cases .

Case#1 discolors at 4.5 seconds ,as counted in your head. Case#2 discolors at 5.0 seconds. A mean time would be 4.8 seconds. For your purposes 5 seconds will suffice. .If you can have someone with a stop watch time you all the better, but your results will still be the same unless you can manually set a start and stop time and even then your results are questionable.
Possible Solutions:


Please watch your flames temperature by controlling your flame to brass neck distance, as well as an even rotation of your brass shell cases and time subjected to your cases necks themselves under heat , making certain to keep the flames translucent color just beyond the tip in constant contact with your case neck at the point where the neck and shoulder angle begin.
Consistency is the key word here. and to that end Teplipaq 700 paste is a step in the right direction.
Better yet is to invest in an annealing machine if you don't own one.
If you do please make the adjustments as noted above.

OBTW I'm using the Annealeeze 2 made by Jeff Buck.
This unit will handle every thing you throw at it without any hiccups.
The price point is nice as well (check them out on U-Tube)

Please Note:


I by all means assure you that I am not trying to upset or hurt your feelings, and please accept my apology if I have !
These observations of mine were simply that just observations and were meant to offer you perhaps some measure of guidance.


Hope This Is Helpful !
 
This is the original Ackley chamber. I had a choice and opted for the original. The dies are Redding along with a .014 competition shell holder that is supposed to make it work right. This is my first Ackley. I originally was going regular 280 and I was swayed on this site to go AI. I have reloaded for years. I am by no means any kind of expert. I've read some of these posts and there are some terms and words I'm not familiar with. The case length on the one that wont chamber is 2.615, it might have been 2.616 prior to trimming. I have reloaded the suspect case and it will chamber now.
2.525 is the trim length of the 280 AI. Your a little too long.
 
Most reloading manuals suggest you trim 0.010" shorter than the length shown in the manual. My Fifth Addition Sierra reloading manual shows cartridge length of 2.525 as does the SAAMI drawing. The Sierra manual was printed long before Nosler got to standardize their version, So, both the "old, traditional" and the Nosler (SAAMI) cartridges use the same cartridge length. Cartridge case length is of the utmost importance in any reloading operation, Ackley or a standard cartridge. Too long might collapse the shoulder and it will jam the brass into the end of the chamber, which will cause high pressures. Reloading any Ackley is the same as reloading any rimless rifle cartridge. New brass should be sized to round-out any irregularities in the brass. Even if the case is within its length, it should be trimmed to square-up the case mouth. De-burr, as you have discovered, before loading. After firing, re-size and check for case length and trim if needed. Re-size no more than is needed for easy chambering. De-burr and tumble before reloading. I never "touch the lands" with the bullet when reloading any hunting cartridge, and I only crimp if needed. If I do crimp, I do it in another operation not while seating.
 
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Edited for accuracy:

2.513-2.525 is the SAAMI case length, with 2.525 as the minimum maximum or trim-to length.
The original wildcat is 0.014 longer, or 2.527-2.539. Either way, 2.615 is long.

Problem is that case length doesn't tell you if your headspace is set correctly.
SAAMI headspace measured case head to datum line (mid shoulder) is 2.1437.
Again, your wildcat chamber could be 0.014 longer.
You really need a comparator or other tool to measure the headspace length.
 
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2.525-2.537 is the SAAMI case length, with 2.525 as the minimum or trim-to length.
The original wildcat is 0.014 longer, or 2.539-2.551. Either way, 2.615 is long.

Problem is that case length doesn't tell you if your headspace is set correctly.
SAAMI headspace measured case head to datum line (mid shoulder) is 2.1437-2.1443.
Again, your wildcat chamber should be 0.014 longer.
You really need a comparator or other tool to measure the headspace length.
Very true but could explain the shoulder crushing and not chambering problem.
 
I picked up a Christensen Ridgeline in 280 Ackley this year and about went crazy with the whole wildcat vs saami debate.
This has been my experience:
I fire formed 60 pieces of Remington 280 rem brass during break-in with no issues, when closing the bolt it felt like there was a slight "crush fit" like I've read it was designed by Mr Ackley to have.
I used Hornaday match grade dies to resize and load new rounds which also have had no issues chambering.

I was very concerned to try the Nosler 280AI brass or even the Hornaday 280AI brass due to the stated size difference. I did however order a 280AI modified case to measure seating depth and compared the headspace measurements to my fired cases and found that it was very close. I don't recall the measurements but it was within a couple thou or so.

I ordered some Nosler brass and it too measured within a couple thou and has performed well in my rifle. Just yesterday I shot some new hornaday brass in 280AI and all but one performed great. I havnt had time to see why the one wouldn't chamber, if there's some major issue Maybe I'll post about it. I think running through the sizing die should fix it.

My experience with the two chambers debate has left me with the following conclusion: One of the following is true,
1. There is no difference between a Saami chamber and wildcat cat chamber like some have argued.
2. The tech at Christensen doesn't know *** he's talking about and I have a saami chamber.

either way I love the rifle and even more so love the cartridge.
 
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So help me read this correctly. I understand the drawings are MAX cartridge and MIN chamber. The cartridge dimension we are talking about is listed "2.525-.012 [64.14-0.30]." The .012 is clearly a variance. Does this mean that the trim-to length would be 2.525 - .012 = 2.513?

saami280ai.jpg
 
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