2 dumb questions

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by etisll40, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. etisll40

    etisll40 Well-Known Member

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    I have an FNar that reads 7.62x51
    I have another Ar-15 that reads 5.56x45

    Question; assuming the answer is the same for both these examples.

    I can shoot 7.62x51 or 308 in my gun because it can handle the higher pressure of the 7.62x51 and the same for my 5.56x45 use 223 too?

    I haven't gone down to look but I am just getting into reloading, can I use either case to reload or do I have to be specific? If specific, which cases should I choose.

    I have other 308's so until I start reloading, and I know that fire forming in the chamber locks in the 308 loads but how about my AR's as I have used both.

    Thanks
     
  2. kc0pph

    kc0pph Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure about the 7.62.

    My father has a DPMS 5.56 and he shoots pretty hot loads out of it. To my knowledge there is no difference in the brass for the 5.56 or 223. I have been told not to shoot 5.56 out of .223 But there are some loads for the .223 that are higher pressure than a 5.56. They also use the same dies.

    As always with reloading take baby steps and work you way up. The golden rule is take the recomended load and drop it 10% then work up from there.

    Also try the Horniday 69gn (I think that is what they are i know they are 69gn) and use Varget. Most accurate load we have found (Using CCI SR primers).
     

  3. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    It's a popular myth that the military 7.62x51mm cartridge has unsafe higher pressure than the commercial .308 Winchester. The reason is that some specs are listed in the old copper units of pressure (CUP) and other specs in modern piezoelectric strain gages' pounds per square inch (PSI) . 52,000 CUP has virtually the exact same pressure as 61,000 PSI. The conversion's not exact but this is within 1%.

    Worse yet, is the fact that some places (web pages, manuals, word of mouth, etc) state pressure in PSI when the value is really CUP. The reverse happens too. Best examples are in older books published before piezoelectric strain gages were invented. Peak pressure valuse are often listed in PSI when the only methos used to measure peak pressure was copper disks crushed in a special pressure test gun.

    Both the commercial and military versions of each cartridge have virtually the same peak pressure specs. The difference between them is less than the difference between maximum average and maximum peak pressures. Check out SAAMI's web site and look at your favorite cartridge maximum average pressure in one of the documents listed under "SAAMI/ANSI Standards:"

    http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm?page=ANSI

    Google for "MIL-C- 7.62" then pick one of the military specs for the 7.62 NATO round for its peak pressure. Virtually all are listed in PSI but were actually measured with CUP numbers.
     
  4. Loner

    Loner Well-Known Member

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    You do not shoot bolt gun .308/7.62 loads in a gas gun. As stated .308 and 7.62 are
    the same. 5.56 and .223 are not. The shorter tighter throat on a .223 can pinch the
    bullet as the brass stretches into the throat. I don't think it has ever been a problem in
    a bolt gun but it has been in an AR.
     
  5. kc0pph

    kc0pph Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected. There must be a slight difference because eyeball a 556 and 223 and i cant tell the difference. Ill mic the cases sometime.
     
  6. backwoods83

    backwoods83 Well-Known Member

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    Both are interchangeable with the exception of an AR with a basic saami 223 chamber where there is almost no freebore/short throated and a steep leade angle then you will have brass flow issues as mentioned earlier. The dimensions, case wise of the 7.62 and 5.56 are the same externally but the millitary brass typically has less internal capacity. There are several variations in 7.62 and 5.56s in AR platforms, but the differences are all simply throat length and design. But for your ARs I reccomend using a full length small base circle die to reload for them for consistency and feeding reliability, and I use the neck sizing method for bolt guns.
     
  7. kc0pph

    kc0pph Well-Known Member

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    I do not shoot 7.62 but on the 223 the ar will only feed correctly if i use a Small Base die. I use Neck Dies for all of my bolt guns as well but for my fathers AR it is a Small Base (Full Length Would also cause problems). Im starting to miss that little thing, was a fun plinker.
     
  8. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    I and a few dozen others I personally know have shot thousands of rounds of commercial .308 Win. ammo in US military semiauto rifles.

    Why did the US military rifle teams shooting both M14's and M1's with 7.62 NATO mil spec chambers order then shoot millions of rounds of commercial .308 Win. ammo from Remington, Federal, Hornady and Winchester ammo without any signs of a problem? And after the M16 was first allowed for use in competition, millions of rounds of .223 Rem. commercial ammo was bought from the same companies to shoot in them; all without a problem of any kind. All the service teams shooting competition-grade M16's it's first year (1971) used standard commercial .223 Rem. cases to hanadload their ammo with.

    This absurd issue came up one time some years ago when I was on a military team, so I called Springfield Armory in Massachusetts to ask them about this. Their engineer told me commercial .308 Win. ammo was safe to use in both the 7.62 NATO barrels they made for Garands and M14 rifles; they knew the military teams were doing it and had no safety concerns whatsoever.

    Even Remington's Mike Walker, the guy who headed the design team for the 7.62 NATO round knew it was safe to shoot commercial ammo in the military chambers. He tried to convince Remington to make it a commercial round so it would be just like the .30-06; swap ammo types between both comerrcial and military firearms. But Winchester beat out Remington for the commercial version as they got the first really big military contract for 7.62 NATO ammo.
     
  9. CogburnR

    CogburnR Well-Known Member

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    The leade or throat of the 5.56 is longer and the actual 5.56 ammo for it is hotter than 223 to take advantage of the longer throat.

    If you shoot 223 in a 5.56 it is ok because the 223 is made for a shorter throat.

    If you use 5.56 that is really 5.56 in a 223 you may have pressure problems because of the short throat and the ammo is made to produce full pressure in a long throat gun.
     
  10. etisll40

    etisll40 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I have to get one of my ar-15 barrel's checked out as I don't know what it was reamed for?
     
  11. CogburnR

    CogburnR Well-Known Member

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  12. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    Loner and cogburnr are on track with what I have found too. There is a difference in the throats between the 5.56 and the 223
     
  13. etisll40

    etisll40 Well-Known Member

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    I should buy the gauge, I've been reading that unless you check yourself, you might get a barrel you may not want.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
  14. Wile E Coyote

    Wile E Coyote Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Loner and CogburnR have said it best, at least as I understand it regarding the mentioned chambers.

    I hope I don't confuse this any more but this thread made me look at My AR, a Rock River Arms. Check to see if your 5.56x45/223 AR has a ".223 Wylde" chamber. The wylde chamber will handle both commercial and military cartridges. My gun is stamped "5.56mm" but in RRA's spec's it's a wylde chamber. I've shot both from the gun and no problems. It is my understanding that the wylde chamber was developed to resolve the issues with chamber specs involving 5.56/223

    my .02