.17 rem 37 bergers?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by jax338, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. jax338

    jax338 Active Member

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    I was wondering if anyone could tell me if my model 700 would be able to stablize these bullets. Berger says recommeded twist is 1:6 and my gun has a 1:9. And if so, does anyone have any data on these. The bc on this bullet is 0.348 which is way higher than any other bullet in this caliber. Thanks,
    A.J.
     
  2. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Not a chance. Your stuck w/the light bullets in that one.
     

  3. jax338

    jax338 Active Member

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    Bill,
    That is what I figured but I thought I would ask to make sure. Thanks again.
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Some factory Rem 700 will shoot up to the 30 gr FB bullets. Others will not. I have one that will not but it loves the 20 gr V-Max loaded to 4300 fps. Only problem is powder fouling is a real pain in this rifle so it is currently sitting in the shop waiting to be fitted with a 24" Lilja 1-12 chambered in 221 Fireball.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    jax338, The others are correct, and many (including I) have tried the 37 grain Berger, and found that a 1 in 9 will not stabilise it.

    History shows that a 1 in 7 twist will stabilise and shoot it accurately, as long as the velocity is kept below about 3,450 fps. Push the velocity above 3,450 and groups open up and the bullet will often come apart.

    Walt Berger in reply to my letter in 1997, advised that his 37 grain VLD were like the other Berger VLD bullets, and were designed to operate in the 3,000 - 3200 fps window where they gave best accuracy.

    The REM 700 in 17 Rem usually has a 1 in 9 twist, and should stabilise bullets up to about 30 - 32 grains in weight. My suggested options to try would be: Hornady 25 grain Vmax (BC .235), Berger 30 grain HPBT (BC of about .230), and Todd Kindler's 30 grain VLD has a BC of about .270.

    I don't want to be a doomsdayer, but from personal experience I believe that a good custom stainless barrel is necessary when using the .17 Remington or a larger wildcat case, as barrel fouling was excessive in the three factory 17 Remington barrels that I tried. Good luck with your .17 Rem. Brian.
     
  6. jax338

    jax338 Active Member

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    Thanks for all the help guys. Brian, right now I am shooting the v-max and they shoot and kill great but I saw the b.c. on the berger and got excited. I suspected it wouldn't work but I had to ask just in case. Again thanks for all of the help.
     
  7. col48

    col48 Well-Known Member

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    as long as the velocity is kept below about 3,450 fps. Push the velocity above 3,450 and groups open up and the bullet will often come apart.

    Walt Berger in reply to my letter in 1997, advised that his 37 grain VLD were like the other Berger VLD bullets, and were designed to operate in the 3,000 - 3200 fps window where they gave best accuracy.

    is this true of all VLD BULLETS irrespective of caliber.
    thanks
    Colin
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Col48,

    No but it is true of all the Berger VLD bullets made on teh J-4 jacket. I have gone right down the line from 22 ca 80 gr bullets to the other end of the spectrum and with a 1-8 twist all will limit out at 3200-3250 with good accuracy.

    Some can be used in slightly slower twist barrels such as a 1-9 twist for the 105 gr 6mm VLD and often significant velocity gains can be had with good accuracy. This is also true with the 22 cal with the 80 gr VLD if you have enough case to get velocities up for good stabilization.

    Simply put, if your using a heavy J-4 jacketed bullet in a twist faster then 1-9, you will be limited on average to 3200-3250 fps.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    On the subject of the Berger VLD bullets, I noticed while browsing their website several days ago, that they now list a 90 grain VLD in .224 cal. The bullet is listed as 1.260 inches in length, has a listed BC of .517 and the recommended twist is 1 in 7.

    As a comparison with other 90 grain bullets, the JLK website lists their 90 grain as 1.225 inches long, BC of .580 and recommended twist of 1 in 6.5. The Sierra 90 grain MK is 1.158 inches long, BC of .504 and recommended twist is 1 in 6.5.

    I am assuming that the Berger 90 grain VLD will have the same velocity restrictions of the other Berger VLD's as Kirby mentioned above. Effectively that will rule them out for use in cases such as the 22/6mmAI, 22/284, 224 Clark, and 224AM which are capable of generating 3,400+ fps with this bullet weight.

    However, with the variety of 90 grain bullets that are now available, I believe that this bullet weight is now a viable option for those considering smaller cases such as the 22/250AI, 22BR, 22 Dasher, etc. that are likely to generate velocities up to about 3,200 fps.

    The Berger 115VLD in 257 cal also took my attention. It lists the length at 1.196 inches, and a BC .523, which to me seems questionable, as the Nosler 115 grain Ballistic Tip is slightly longer at about 1.205 inches, and has a listed BC of .453. Personally, it seems just another instance of why published BC's are of questionable value, and as Kirby and others have often suggested, drop tests in the field with your own rifle are what really counts. Brian.
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Brian,

    I would agree 100% with your comments.

    As far as published BC values, it has become more of a selling point then a helpful offering of realistic data. In the end, it really does not matter what the actual scientifically pure BC of a bullet is as long as the numbers you put into your ballisitic program produce a model that matches actual bullet trajectory. This is all that matters.

    THe new 90 and 100 and 107 gr pills do for the 22 cal rounds such as the 22 BR up to 22-250 AI what the 105 and 107 gr pills do for the 6mm BR and 6-250. In relatively calm conditions, they will not give up alot to the much larger rounds at long range.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. 1doug

    1doug Well-Known Member

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    Brian i Have both those 25 cal bullets and just from looking at them the bergers would/ should have a higer B.C over the noslers.

    d-a
     
  12. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    d-a, Thanks for the info, as although I have the Nosler 100 &amp; 115 BT, I don't have the Berger 115VLD. What accuracy levels do you get with Berger 115VLD, and what case do you use it in, as I have heard quite a few reports of difficulty in getting good accuracy with this bullet.

    I got excellent accuracy (sub 0.5moa) with the Nosler 115BT in my 25/06 AI.(SakoL61R, Shilen 24 in 1/10 twist) However, in the last 12 months have been testing and using Richard's 125 ULD, and 130 BCFBHP, and have had similar accuracy levels with both bullets. I recently decided to use the 125 ULD for most of my field shooting with this rifle, and have been more than happy with the results so far.

    Currently my gunsmith is fitting a Krieger 26 inch 1 in 7 twist barrel to my Rem 700 LA and chambering to the 257 Weatherby. So hopefully within a month I will be testing Richard's 142 &amp; 156 ULD's in this rifle, and it will be interesting to see the results in the field. Brian.
     
  13. Mntngoat

    Mntngoat Member

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    I have a 1:6 Lilja in 17 PPC that was bullets around these bullets and they will not stabalize. They enter teh target sidways if at all at 50 yards!
    I'll gladly sell you my tomato stake I mean barrel for you to see for yourself!
    Dan lilja thinks it should require a 1:7 or 1:8.

    Michael

    Michael
     
  14. 1doug

    1doug Well-Known Member

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    I have only shot the bergers at 100 yards, but accuracy was great less than .5 moa. I was shooting them out a 1-9 twist 5 grove 257 STW at 3700 fps.

    I have a new Laminated A5 stock to put on it so i am waiting on that to get finished before more testing

    d-a