Carlos Hathcock .30-06

[Bart B]

Around 1970, The US Navy Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit at San Diego had some Rem. 700's with Redfield's atop them they were testing for accuracy with different lots of M118 match ammo. They would ship two ammo cans of the best shooting lot with each 700 to SEAL team units. Typical accuracy at 600 yards tested in a machine rest was 6 to 7 inches.

They also had some silencers on a few of these rifles. About 16 inches long and near 1.5 inches in diameter, they did reduce the report quite a bit. But accuracy with the silencer attached suffered a bit limiting their use to no more than about 400 yards.

 

[Johnboy]

well guys I didn't have to read the book to get to know Hathcock.my good friend how sniped along with him told me alot about him.he was all so Hathcocks coach before thet went to war.but now both are shooting up in the clouds looking down at use.and I sometimes wounder if they are laughing at us or cheering us on.but hey they both gave us the freedom to do the things we sometimes take for granted.just wish they didn't have to do the things they did for us.

 

[Overkill338]

Hathcocks rifle burned up in an APC after it hit a mine in Vietnam. I read the book too, it is a great read. I'm sure he had more than one though.

Gunny Hathcock's venerable Winchester could certainly tell a tale or two.

It is a Model 70 National Match version made before 1940. It had a standard weight barrel as well as a clip guide milled into the receiver bridge so 5-round stripper clips could quickly and easily charge the magazine. The stock on his is the original standard one, not the Marksman stock later used. There's clips of the same type of rifle and scope used in WWII on TV sometimes.

Carrying a Unertl 8X target scope in external mounts, the scope had to be pulled back after each shot. Sliding forward in the mounts from recoil, that was the norm for those older Lyman, Fecker, El Monte and Unertl target scopes favored by competitive shooters.

His ammo was select lots of M72 30 caliber match ammo with 172-gr. FMJ boattail bullets. They left at near 2700 fps from new barrels. But the Gunny's barrel was worn enough that they left a bit slower. Note that M118 7.62 NATO match ammo wasn't made until 1964.

I read somewhere that the USMC's Marksmanship Unit at Quantico MCB, VA, checked his rifle out after he retired from active duty. Its barrel was rather worn and readily swallowed a bore erosion gage. It shot about 2 feet at 1000 yards, not nearly as well as it did when new. But Gunny Hathcock was so familiar with its trigger and sight settings for the trajectory its bullets followed, he didn't want to use anything else.

 

[Kiwi Nate]

Interesting how Winchester has always been plagued with troubles (or did they just plague themselves with troubles). Can I ask, why did the match shooters prefer the M70 to the M700?

My LR rifle is based on an M70 action. It is a 1999 stainless controlled feed model. The things I like the most are the three position safety, being able to field strip the bolt and the extraction. Of course, all of these features are relative to the bolt and not the action with regard to accuracy potential. I have often wondered which was the the most rigid of the two. The M700 is certainly easier to bed etc.

One other question, I thought that the 168 grain SMK as loaded by federal was the current service load for the M24. Is this correct?

Am just at the chapter in the book where Hathcock is under arrest (captain Land's orders) for working too hard and Land has put him on a diet of beer to try and slow him down. "I want that skinny little sh#t arrested"

 

[Bart B]

Can I ask, why did the match shooters prefer the M70 to the M700?

I have often wondered which was the the most rigid of the two. The M700 is certainly easier to bed etc.

Here's the advantages the Winchester 70 has over the Remington 700:

* Magazine charges more reliably from stripper clips, either from the clip guide milled into the receiver bridge or a screwed on clip guide. And the 70's magazine feeds rounds more reliably.

* Extractor's more reliable; either the original claw style or newer sliding one in the bolt face.

* Safety is more reliable and locks the firing pin, not the trigger.

* Easier to operate in rapid fire with better shaped and longer bolt handle.

* Easier to swap barrels on with its recoil lug intregal with the receiver.

* Classic controlled round feed versions easier to remove fired cases from in single fire operation.

* Winchesters 70's are near 3 times stiffer than Remington 700's.

* Receiver doesn't twist a bit loose from epoxy bedding after a few hundred rounds with bullets heavier than 165 grains and has to be rebedded.

Winchester Model 70 based match rifles have shot smaller test groups at the longer ranges that most benchrest records.

 

[TOM H]

Nate,
There were a couple of errors in Henderson's account here, but they're relatively minor and shouldn't detract from the story itself. First, there was no such thing as a Sierra 173 grain FMJBT. The bullet was a match grade M72/M118 bullet produced at Lake City or Frankford arsenal. Good bullets, and they'd stay supersonic out past a thousand yards. Not a fair comparison with the Sierra 168, since the HPBT is considerably more accurate, but won't stay supersonic our that far. They lose it, break the transonic range and usually start tumbling around 900 yards or so. The newer 175 grain HPBT loaded in the current 7.62mm M118LR was the hybrid that resulted to cure both the accuracy issues of the 173s, and the BC deficiencies of the 168 in one bullet. Done pretty well in that, and is still helping Mujihadeed get their promised 72 virgins, one round at a time. In WWII and Korea, snipers usually used 168 grain AP rounds, as they were the heaviest available, and there were no match rounds in production for most of this period. The match rounds came out of some work done by some very competent competitive shooters who wound up serving as snipers (sound familar?) in both WWII and Korea, eventually going to the M72, the M118, the M118 Special Ball and the M852, and finally the M118LR. There's a whole story here about how these rounds evolved, and it's a pretty interesting one.

Never got the chance to meet GySgt Hathcock, but I've shot with his son on several occasions. He was my coach in Long range Firing School at Camp Perry in 2000, and a genuinely nice guy. Major Land went on the work for the NRA competitions division (and may still be there, I'm not sure). It's his signature on my Distinguished Rifleman's certificate, which I thought was just pretty damned cool. By the way, if you like Henderson's book, check out "Shots Fired In Anger" by Col John George. The story of an NRA competitive shooter who found himself fighting in the Pacific. His detailed knowledge of precison shooting, natural interest in and knowledge of guns made him a fascinating commentator on the fighting.

Kevin thomas
Lapua USA

Kevin tell you alittle story if you don't mind. I joined the marines 1960 did boot camp at Pendleton my first duty was seagoing marine stationed in Long Beach,Ca. Every year you have qualify so I did mine at Kaneohe Bay,Hawaii Marine base got to meet Carlos he was with the 4th Marines shooting the Pacific Div didn't mean alot to me back then. At that time Hawaii was called foreign duty station 2yr tour but you got extra pay and was good duty. I crossed path again at Cherry Point during the cuban missle deal I was heading to Cuban and that was the last time I saw him. Just a side note my last duty station was with the 4th Marines at Kaneohe Bay (I had to extend my enlistment to for that duty) I made the landing at Chu Lai in May 1965 then got out.

 

[sp6x6]

I used to run into this older guy in the local elk moutains, well worn 30-06 in his hands, and Im talking very large drainages that you cant even think of shooting across, magnum country. Felt kinda sorry for the guy, me packing my 340WM. But dang, every year went buy and that guy was tacking a 6x6 out of the mtns. ususally opening day. Later a friend told me his rafters in garage were full of horns, Not feeling bad for him any more, he new that gun and the country, I find old hides of his still

 

[Buffalobob]

I made the landing at Chu Lai in May 1965

I spent several less than enjoyable evenings there on the beach.


Later became the home of the Chu Lia sniper school run by Major Lones Wigger,

Hall of Fame Inductee

 

[jerrschmitt]

Interesting how Winchester has always been plagued with troubles (or did they just plague themselves with troubles). Can I ask, why did the match shooters prefer the M70 to the M700?
QUOTE]

I started my Military shooting career in about 1958. We used the M70 back then because there wasn't any Remington M700 Match rifles around. Tradition in the service is a hard thing to change. Gen Custer said, "Don't change nothing till I get back from the Little Big Horn."

Now days, all my rifles are Remington 700.

 

[Kiwi Nate]

Well, I finished up with the .30-06 I have been accurizing which coincided with my reading about Hathcock. As a last excersize, I took the .30-06 out into the hills and took a video blog for the client who owns the old Parker Hale rifle. I shot a couple of goats at 325 yards, then busted a few rocks out at 600 yards, no problems. Next I took out my 7mmRUM and shot a few goats for dog food at 1015-1051 yards. These are the longest kills I have made so far. It was a good experience but its nothing in comparison to what guys have been able to achieve with the .308 and .30-06 with slow, lower BC bullets. Its almost like the RUM utilizes ultra velocity training wheels. Nevertheless, the extra veloctity aids killing, although, the 180gr VLD failed to expand when it slipped behind the shoulder of one of the goats. Looked like a slow SMK wound.

 

[black feather]

Where can I get just the barrel? If you direct me to Douglas, what specs do I request?

 

[Trickymissfit]

Just in the middle of reading the biography of Carlos Hathcock by Charles Henderson- Marine Sniper. The book certainly has me drawn in, am up to the chapter about the Apache, the man hating female sniper- very frightening.

Anyway, It is amazing to think what Hatchcock and the lads were able to acheive with the .30-06, loaded with the 173 grain Sierra BT at 2550fps. Henderson states that Hathcock kept his M70 zeroed at 700 yards. I crunched the numbers using the current 168gr SMK and for a 700 yard zero, the bullet would strike around 24" high at 100 yards, 59" high at 375 yards and from there, gradually fall to its zero. I wonder if this was actually the zero he used or if Henderson has not gotten it quite right.

I have been working on a client's .30-06 today, its a very old Parker Hale/ Mauser action/ English trigger/ English light weight barrel in OK condition for its age. It had a re-stock and I was asked to bed the old girl. Seems to like the Hornady 165 grain BTSP at 2950fps which for an old rifle, is a healthy load. I will probably take it out for a couple of long shots before the rifle goes back to the owner so it will be great to give it a work out.

I certainly have a lot of respect for how guys like Hathcock and also match shooters, have been able to use the .308 and .30-06 and read the wind at 1000 yards. With my .308 culling rifle, I am absolutely hopeless past 450 yards. Although I should learn to use the .308 out further, the .30-06 is very appealing.

Have any of you guys become smitten with the old .30 for inexpensive LR work?

a year ago I came into an autographed copy of White Feather (signed by the author, Henderson, and Hathcock). Book is far more interesting than the 91 confirmed kills book in my view point. Hathcock and I pretty much covered the same A. O. back then. One thing that always kinda bugged me was that it ws near impossible to shoot much further than 400 yards unless you happened to controll the high ground (most oif the time you didn't)
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

Kiwi Nate comments:If one typically has targets somewhere between 500 and 1000 yards, keeping the sights set for 700 yards is a good starting point.

Back in the late 1960's when the US Army and Marine Corps was running out of accurate Winchesters for snipers to use, they decided to get a new one. Winchester was in financial straights at the time and the officers wearing stars didn't think a company that might fold would be a good one to use as a supplier. Despite the desires of their cometitive shooting teams' knowing the Winchester action was a better platform to build an accurate and much more reliable sniper rifle on (just as it was better for high power match rifles), and many snipers also shot on these teams, the decision to go with Remington was cast in stone. I think Gale McMillan was instrumental in convincing the brass that the Remington 700 was the better platform. And he ended up supplying his barrels for them.

Why the powers at hand chose Redfield's 3-9X variable as the standard scope dumbfounds me. It was one of the least repeatable rifle scopes on the market at the time. In the late '70's or early '80's, the services finally shifted to a Unertl 8 or 10 power scope with improved optics and internal adjustments as good as Weaver's Micro Track system.

Speaking or scopes, yes the old Unertl had to be pulled back after each shot. The picture I posted shows one with two clamping rings, one in front of and the other in back of the front mount. The front one was used as a stop for pulling the scope back to the same place for each shot so its short, 2-inch eye relief would be set, the back one was the stop to prevent the scope from sliding too far forward in recoil making it harder to get back on target to see the results of the shot. Those scopes were pulled back with a twisting motion in the same direction so they returned to battery at exactly the same place for each shot preloading them at the same points with the same pressure each time.

Just an added note from the same A.O., and yet not taking one thing from Carlos Hathcock. He didn't have the highest KIA's on record for the Marine snipers. Can't remember the name but the guy had around 120 confirmed kills. J.T. Ward had 107 confirmed kills, but operated mostly a little east of our A.O. There was a kid attached to the 1st CAV a few miles to the south (still close) that had a 900+ yard one shot kill with a National Match M14 that had N.M. peep sights. The distance was measured off the range finder on an M48 tank, and they are known to be very accurate. The guy he shot was sitting in a tree watching them at about five in the afternoon. The shadows were moving all over the place, and it actually took him a few minutes to shoot the guy (a double sucking chest wound). There was an S.F. team that probably had well over a hundred kills on an un-named hill that was later known as LZ Melon. All these guys amazed me
gary

 

[Bart B]

Interesting how Winchester has always been plagued with troubles (or did they just plague themselves with troubles). Can I ask, why did the match shooters prefer the M70 to the M700? QUOTE]Seven reasons.

Receiver's near 3 times stiffer. Don't belive that? Go measure them. Or calculate it with those 4th order mechanical engineering moment of inertia formulas.

Easier to charge a magazine with 5 rounds quickly from stripper clips and a clip guide.

Easier to operate the bolt; it's got a better shaped and longer handle and is smoother with less tight spots.

More reliable feeding from the box magazine.

Extractors rarely, if ever, break.

Holds epoxy bedding better due to its flat bottom and side parts. Round receivers tend to work loose from epoxy bedding after a few hundred rounds.

Field strip the bolt and replace firing pin or extractor without special tools.