Range Finders . . .

[Country Bumpkin]

Hello and Merry Christmas to All!!!

I have already searched and read through 3 pages of threads . . . didn't quite get the information I'm after.

Budget: $400 - $600 (I'm very patient so I can wait for something to go on sale - just for consideration).

Uses: Hunting NW Mountains - 700 yds max on game animals.
Shooting Competitions - have never done one and don't plan on being competitive, just want to participate.

Since I do not plan on ever killing an animal beyond 700 (unless it's a varmint) I do NOT need to spend more money on a feature that I don't need (distance). If I ever get to the point where I want to shoot animals beyond 700 yards, it will require several years of practice, then I'll upgrade to something newer with more bells and whistles at that time.

With that said, I do like quality. I'm leaning towards the Leica 1,600B.

Questions: I can't find a source online that will explain to me the "ballistic profile options" for the 1600B. I know that it provides information for temperature and pressure and that it compensates for ballistic curve . . . but I can't find a detailed report of how it links all of these together (or maybe it doesn't)? Does the 1,600 B take pressure, temperature, angle of inclination and a specific load (programmed B/C, velocity, etc) into account to calculate a true and accurate shoot-to rance?
- I'd like to confirm that I can input a specific bullet load into the range finder and save it (and a few others) as a "profile". Basically, will this function like a G7?!?!?! Haha, I know that's a lot to ask of something that's 1/3 or less the price fo a G7.

- If it does NOT function or program like a G7, does it come with enough pre-programmed ballistic curves to accurately align with multiple modern popular calibers (think 7 Rem Mag, 6.5 Creed, 270 Win, etc)?

Thanks all, I hope nobody get's too offended if this has already been beaten to death . . . but I figure everyone is at home with family and looking for something to take their mind off cleaning up wrapping paper and cardboard boxes . . . Merry Christmas everyone!!!

 

[geo4061]

Love my 1600B. However, do not buy it for the ballistics. You have to use one of their drops. I could not find any thing they match. I paired the 1600B with the Kestrel 4500AB to get what you want. If I were buying new I would buy the rangefinder I wanted and then buy the new top of the line Kestrel. This will do everything you want and much more.

 

[Barrelnut]

I use a 1600B. Have my likes and dislikes with it. So will try to answer your questions.

Does the 1,600 B take pressure, temperature, angle of inclination and a specific load (programmed B/C, velocity, etc) into account to calculate a true and accurate shoot-to rance?

Yes it does. But unfortunately it is not accurate enough to even consider using for a shooting solution.

- I'd like to confirm that I can input a specific bullet load into the range finder and save it (and a few others) as a "profile".

You cannot input a specific load as a profile. This is why it is a not accurate enough for the solution above. The rangefinder has maybe 12 specific pre-programed ballistic profiles that are for generic cartridge loads and you will not find one that is close enough to your custom load to be accurate for a long range solution.

- If it does NOT function or program like a G7, does it come with enough pre-programmed ballistic curves to accurately align with multiple modern popular calibers (think 7 Rem Mag, 6.5 Creed, 270 Win, etc)?

No, I have not found one that works well enough. The other problem is it that it is hard to reprogram for another cartridge, if you shoot different rifles you will have to reset it which is not practical.

The rangefinder would have no problem accurately ranging to 700 yards though. It has surprisingly good glass for a rangefinder. Probably some of the best out there. It has a small beam divergence with a small bright reticle and can range accurately. the main problem is that to have the range finder give you a incline modified "shoot to range" you have to enable a specific rifle profile. That profile will not be close enough to your rifle to use the "shoot to range" or Angle Modified Range, or whatever you want to call it as a solution. It is the rangefinders biggest weakness. It works great if you use the range, temp, pressure, and angle info, it gives you and enter it into a ballistics app on your phone.

If you do not care for the excellent glass that the 1600B has you would be better off with a Kilo2200. It calculates a "shoot to range" or "Angle Modified Range" correctly for shooting up or down steep inclines. With the 1600B you will need to enter the angle the 1600B provides and enter it in the app for a solution.

Hope it helps.

 

[midnightmalloy]

I use a 1600B. Have my likes and dislikes with it. So will try to answer your questions.

Yes it does. But unfortunately it is not accurate enough to even consider using for a shooting solution.

You cannot input a specific load as a profile. This is why it is a not accurate enough for the solution above. The rangefinder has maybe 12 specific pre-programed ballistic profiles that are for generic cartridge loads and you will not find one that is close enough to your custom load to be accurate for a long range solution.

No, I have not found one that works well enough. The other problem is it that it is hard to reprogram for another cartridge, if you shoot different rifles you will have to reset it which is not practical.

The rangefinder would have no problem accurately ranging to 700 yards though. It has surprisingly good glass for a rangefinder. Probably some of the best out there. It has a small beam divergence with a small bright reticle and can range accurately. the main problem is that to have the range finder give you a incline modified "shoot to range" you have to enable a specific rifle profile. That profile will not be close enough to your rifle to use the "shoot to range" or Angle Modified Range, or whatever you want to call it as a solution. It is the rangefinders biggest weakness. It works great if you use the range, temp, pressure, and angle info, it gives you and enter it into a ballistics app on your phone.

If you do not care for the excellent glass that the 1600B has you would be better off with a Kilo2200. It calculates a "shoot to range" or "Angle Modified Range" correctly for shooting up or down steep inclines. With the 1600B you will need to enter the angle the 1600B provides and enter it in the app for a solution.

Hope it helps.

Very good info and advice here. One thing I would suggest if you are thinking of purchasing something like a kestrel for a ballistics solver would be to look at what that combo costs and compare it with what an all up system such as the sig kilo 2400. I purchased mine new for $1150 off of gunbroker.com.

 

[Country Bumpkin]

Love my 1600B. However, do not buy it for the ballistics. You have to use one of their drops. I could not find any thing they match. I paired the 1600B with the Kestrel 4500AB to get what you want. If I were buying new I would buy the rangefinder I wanted and then buy the new top of the line Kestrel. This will do everything you want and much more.

Thanks Geo. When you say you couldn't find anything they match, do you mean that there wasn't anything even remotely close, or could you make it work out to 700 yards or so with minor adjustments if you were to consult a range card for various elevation/temperature conditions?

What I'm hoping for is a range finder that will provide me accurate readings for distance, angle, pressure so that in combination with a range card I can make the shot. I know that a system like that is way more complicated than just pointing a G7 at a target and being provided with a solution, but I'm not prepared to spend that much money on a rangefinder. Similarly, I'm not interesting in buying both a range finder and a kestrel at this time (too much investment at this point in my shooting endeavour).

 

[Country Bumpkin]

I use a 1600B. Have my likes and dislikes with it. So will try to answer your questions.

Yes it does. But unfortunately it is not accurate enough to even consider using for a shooting solution.

You cannot input a specific load as a profile. This is why it is a not accurate enough for the solution above. The rangefinder has maybe 12 specific pre-programed ballistic profiles that are for generic cartridge loads and you will not find one that is close enough to your custom load to be accurate for a long range solution.

- Understood. What do you consider long range? What I consider to be long range is 700 yards, I'm comfortable killing animals at 300-400 at this point in time because I'm limited to that range by my current range finder. When I'm at the range with friends with quality range finders I'm capable of ringing steel regularly out to 700 with no issue. My rifle and my abilities are capable, my range guestimation is not. Would one of the pre-programmed solutions be close enough out to 700 yards if I consult a range card for fine-tuning adjustments?

No, I have not found one that works well enough. The other problem is it that it is hard to reprogram for another cartridge, if you shoot different rifles you will have to reset it which is not practical.

- Gotcha, I only change from one rifle to another when I'm back at camp or back at home. I only have one rifle that's capable of shooting beyond 450 or 500 so I realistically won't need to switch solutions, would only rely on the line-of-sight range (or ger closer).

The rangefinder would have no problem accurately ranging to 700 yards though. It has surprisingly good glass for a rangefinder. Probably some of the best out there. It has a small beam divergence with a small bright reticle and can range accurately. the main problem is that to have the range finder give you a incline modified "shoot to range" you have to enable a specific rifle profile. That profile will not be close enough to your rifle to use the "shoot to range" or Angle Modified Range, or whatever you want to call it as a solution. It is the rangefinders biggest weakness. It works great if you use the range, temp, pressure, and angle info, it gives you and enter it into a ballistics app on your phone.

- Assuming that I'm using some of NA's most common hunting rounds, would you think that a hand-loader could develop a load that would closely match at least one of the profiles? I'm not stuck on one particular brand or weight of bullet or powder charge. I'm only interested in placing a quality hunting bullet on target out to 700 yards. With that, there are so many different options for load development, I would have to imagine that I'd be able to get one load developed to match an existing solution within the rangefinder so that I could utilize the "shoot to range" or "angle modified range". Thougts?

If you do not care for the excellent glass that the 1600B has you would be better off with a Kilo2200. It calculates a "shoot to range" or "Angle Modified Range" correctly for shooting up or down steep inclines. With the 1600B you will need to enter the angle the 1600B provides and enter it in the app for a solution.

Hope it helps.

Thanks Barrelnut, if it's not too much, I have some other questions for you. Hopefully they show up above.

 

[geo4061]

Not even close.

 

[Buck Buster]

SIG SAUER; I have the KILO 2000 it will always give readings further than what you say you need one for. I paid $307 for it. The KILO 2200 will range even farther then the 2000 and I have seen them on sale before Christmas for well under $ 400 Its your money but judging from what you said, you will never need anything more. And they are excellent quality. Go and look through different types, then there will be no second guessing yourself. I can usually rage most things with my 2000 out to 900 -1000 yards and have ranged reflective objects out to over 1700 yards. And the 2200 will range farther.

 

[catorres1]

Country Bumpkin,

Following a trip to Colorado and doing some shooting there, where I was able to test my Leica 1600b vs a Sig 2k, I have been doing some research on what I want for a solution going forward.

On paper, the Leica is awesome. The glass is so clear and crisp that I actually use it as an observation device before I resort to my binos. Ranging, I have hit over 1700 yards on it, and consistently can range trees out past 1600 (depending on conditions, of course). Theoretically, you can range at any altitude, temperature and angle and have it provide a perfect solution for you to shoot to, despite the changing conditions.
In reality, as Barrelnut mentioned, it did not quite work out that way. Using a sig and the Leica, ranging out to 600 or so the ballistics from the Leica worked out fine for me. But as the range increased, the numbers started to diverge, so that by the time I got to 875, the Leica had me off by 1 MOA, whereas the Sig's call was right on the money. Beyond that, I don't know how much it would be off because the 1600b only gives an adjusted distance out to 875.
The problem, at least, is the curves as BN mentioned. They give you 12, and 3 choices in zero distance. If you are not fully aligned, you introduce error into the equation, which grows until you are quite off.
I called an acquaintance at Leica about this, and he told me you should be no more than about .5 MOA off or so, so there may be a problem with my individual unit. We did verify the discrepency with many shots over different ranges, however, so it's definitely something with the unit. My ballistics fall almost perfectly between two curves, so the error is maximized. We will see how they might solve this problem for me, I am hoping there is something they will do, we'll see, it is still being considered.

That said, the new 2700 does allow you to input a card with your curve loaded. Theoretically, that should fix the problem, but I can't say for sure. If it does, for the money, it should be pretty nice, depending on how you use it and how far you shoot. They have also extended the distance where the adjusted shoot to is displayed, which is now 1000 yards, but it is not unlimited and it does not consider things that start to matter at longer distance, like coriolis etc. I think it runs 899.

I fell into an amazing deal on a Kestrel Elite when I got home, so I bought it, and I plan to pair it with the RF for longer solutions. Not sure what I will do on the RF...would like to stay with Leica as the glass is so nice, and that's important for how I use it. But we'll see what they do, I may need to get a Sig. I am still trying to work out a workflow...timing different ways of doing it.

Starting from scratch and if money was no object...there is the Sig 2400 out there. It runs 1399, but I have just seen 2 on sale for around 1150 or 1200 on another board. It uses AB's solutions, just like the Kestrel Elite, so I don't think you can do any better. All of it's unlimited range shooting solutions include coriolis, spin drift, Aero jump etc., all correlated to your shoot direction and latitude. The Leica does not consider these, you have to pair with a Kestrel to get that. I do not like the 2400 at all for a wind solution, but if you are the kind of guy that prefers to enter a basic windcall yourself and adjust on the fly yourself, it should be really nice because it all comes up right there in front of you. Glass is not at all like the Leica from those I have examined, but most people don't care about that.

One other thing, you mentioned a range card...on the Kestrel Elite, it has that function...really cool....digital range card that gives you all the solutions you could want, all considered and available to you. So far, I am testing just ranging with the Leica and then viewing the range card for my solution. If there is an angle involved, I would have to input that first...but it's really fast....timed it and from range to finish...about 15 seconds to looking at my solution on the Kestrel. But in truth...the 2400 is still faster if you can afford it....the Kestrel and the 2700 is at least as much unless you find a deal.

HTH!

 

[Buck Buster]

You buy one to range the maximum distance that you MIGHT shoot, at least that's why I bought one. AS long as it does that, I must say that it is good. Sounds to me you have a good one too. I am not thrilled with something that does everything for you except pull the trigger. That can even be accomplished. All I need is the range and my drop chart. I will take it from there, that's part of the fun to me. Good luck hunting and be safe. BANG any second now********* SPLAT!

 

[geo4061]

Where do we need the most help when it comes to shooting long range? WIND! No tool does this better than the Kestrel. While you are inputting the range it is giving you a wind solution, current and average. I don't see how anything could be faster. The wind meter is built in. Not a small extra to be forgotten or lost. Do the competitors work off your phone? Just another item you have to have. You can buy lightly used or new 1600b or 2200 and a 4500AB for under $800. Great Value.

 

[catorres1]

Where do we need the most help when it comes to shooting long range? WIND! No tool does this better than the Kestrel. While you are inputting the range it is giving you a wind solution, current and average. I don't see how anything could be faster. The wind meter is built in. Not a small extra to be forgotten or lost. Do the competitors work off your phone? Just another item you have to have.

Yeah, I am very inexperienced in calling the wind. My longest shots were all made with someone who knows telling what to call for wind. One camp I read says the most important measurement for wind is where you are because that wind has the most time to effect your bullet in flight. Another camp I read says the most important wind is where the target is, and those folks don't care much for wind meters. Honestly, I don't have enough experience to say which is right.

I will say that if you want to have a wind meter and take it's reading and have that considered in your dope, I think the Kestrel is for sure the best solution. The 2400 requires you use your mobile phone, which I personally dislike, and stick the wind impeller into the phone to get a reading which then goes to the 2400 etc. Comparatively, that's a slow solution at best, and is fiddly as well as not robust if you are moving around hunting etc. But I gather that this appeals to guys who just get a one time basic reading and then make a call based on their experience and what they see when taking the shot.

As to whether to rely on the wind meter reading and use it for your dope, or whether to rely on mirage and other factors to make your own judgement...I am not qualified to say which is better.

But I do think that if you want to have wind readings from your meter input into your dope, then I think the Kestrel/RF solution is definitely better. I have already hunted with it a bit and practiced to see what works, and for what what it does, it's fast, efficient and robust. I have left it turned on the whole day we were hunting on at least two occasions, and have spent a bunch of time playing with it...and the battery is still at 100%. The thing sips energy, my phone won't even come close.

The reason I mention this re the OP's question...maybe what would help you make a choice is consider how you like to handle wind...that decision might narrow your choice a bit.

I often make a matrix of what is important to me and then chart out how the choices fill those needs....I am visual...so it helps me 'see' the best solution. When it comes to ranging, the Sig's and Leicas will both range very far very reliably in my experience. Other brands may also meet your needs. But it comes down to some personal needs/desires to separate them. For example, my eyes are not what they usto be, so that clear Leica glass is awesome for me to use it as a very convenient observation device before grabbing the binos. Most don't do that so they could care less...but it's a factor for me...not the only one...but it has value. Maybe consider how far you want to shoot, how far you want to range (longer than maybe you want to shoot to give you an idea of how far waypoints are or whatever) what you want in an RF for wind, etc. Then see what comes out on top.

 

[Buck Buster]

I Will just take an extra shot or two! Much cheaper and more gratifying! When I hunt long range I find Something that is about the same range in another direction and shoot at it first. My gun is bolted fast to a table that I designed, it don't move I can most often call my own shots. That being said, I have done it at 1300 yards shooting at a leaf; I saw the snow kick up, then the hole in the snow. All I had to do was click over about 6 inches and down about 8, all you do since the gun doesn't move is make sure your cross hair is exactly where it was before you shot and move the turret knobs until the cross hair is centered in the bullets crater hole then move onto your intended target. My second shot at 1300 yards resulted in a dead leaf! This is actually done just as fast if not faster then your method. It is a lot cheaper and more fun, you get to shoot more. In an actual hunting situation most of the long range hunters I learned from would just hold for the second shot being that close with the first. This lets you be more of a part of the whole experience, and not letting technology do everything but pull the trigger. I like this method, always have always will. There is a lot of expensive technology out there that's not needed as far as my methods are concerned. If you need it buy it! To each his own. Good luck hunting and be safe.

 

[catorres1]

CB...

Went back and looked at your original post, you mention 700 being your max shot on game.

From what I have experienced with RF's....definitely get all the power you can afford. Have played with 2 sigs and my Leica all at the same time...conditions seriously degrade distance performance (bright sunlight, haze, misty or dusty conditions etc.)...also, I liked being able to use my friend's sig to figure out how far things were (like observation points etc.) so we could plan hikes and stalks etc. IIRC, the longest I have ranged a cow with my 1600 is maybe 1200 yards? And that was under great conditions. Deer, I think I got right at 1k IIRC, and it was not easy in a wide open flat field. Coulda been me, but that's what I could do that day. I think more power would make that possible at even longer ranges.

Last thought, when I got my Leica, I said I would never shoot game past 500...and just hoped to be able to hit at 1k on steel. Both my son and I have surpassed those marks to where we are comfortable taking longer shots than we expected. Nice to have the extra headroom in an RF.

An example of my misjudgement...I bought my son a Kilo 850 a year or two ago because he'll not be shooting over 300 yards anytime soon so the 850 is more than enough. Wrong...his training has allowed him to way surpass that already. Obviously his Kilo ranges much more than 300, but does not go as far as we need on game for example, which can make it hard to use on long shots down an open sendero or across a canyon.

Just a thought, hth!