geo4061
Well-Known Member
Makes my little New Mexico bear look like a kids toy. Too much fun, great trips. Thanks for the pics.
Bear firepower.
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TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing most in here would be opposed to a big bore Ar15?
If they don't jam and you have time for more than one shot, they work. I'm aware of incidents where semi-auto 308s have stopped charging brown bear. The shooter engaged the bear from a distance exceeding 30yds on the first shot, and pumped about 8 rounds into the sow as she attempted to close the distance. There are many firearms that will save your life most of the time.
I don't know what cartridge you have in mind with "big bore AR-15".
When I think bear firepower, I think worst case, in-your-face close dead serious charges, and thus a cartridge and firearm that's most apt to drop them permanently with one solid body blow. I still want the ability for a few rapid follow-up shots, just in case I blow the first shot fired. Or should the bear be exceptionally amped up on crack cocaine, to the point of ultimate shock resistance.
458 Win Mags and 12ga Brenneke slugs both meet the specs for solid body blow one-shot stoppers. Then it's a matter of which firearm offers the better option for multiple follow-up, finisher shots.
For hunting, including longer range shots, the .458 is by far the better choice, because of improved accuracy, and because the Brenneke slugs shed their velocity much more quickly over increasing range. For defensive uses, close range charges, and close range firepower, the 12ga Brenneke Rem 870 is the better choice. In my (not so) humble opinion.
Or multiple cans of bear spray...
Most any firearm is better than a club.
I don't know what cartridge you have in mind with "big bore AR-15".
When I think bear firepower, I think worst case, in-your-face close dead serious charges, and thus a cartridge and firearm that's most apt to drop them permanently with one solid body blow. I still want the ability for a few rapid follow-up shots, just in case I blow the first shot fired. Or should the bear be exceptionally amped up on crack cocaine, to the point of ultimate shock resistance.
458 Win Mags and 12ga Brenneke slugs both meet the specs for solid body blow one-shot stoppers. Then it's a matter of which firearm offers the better option for multiple follow-up, finisher shots.
For hunting, including longer range shots, the .458 is by far the better choice, because of improved accuracy, and because the Brenneke slugs shed their velocity much more quickly over increasing range. For defensive uses, close range charges, and close range firepower, the 12ga Brenneke Rem 870 is the better choice. In my (not so) humble opinion.
Or multiple cans of bear spray...
Most any firearm is better than a club.
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
458 socom or 50 beowolf. I trust my 458 socom ar-15 my ar-10 on the other hand I don't have the same faith in it. I can't see a bear just shrugging of multiple rapid shots of 300gr TTSX's or 300gr solid brass bullets.
Sound like large enough calibers. Large calibers increase the knockout factor. Not familiar with their MVs.
Dale Bagley had time to get one shot with his Rem semi-auto 30-06 after the bear charged from ~35yds, as I recall his story. This semi-auto jammed after that round and the bear pancaked him to the ground before he could draw his .44 Mag Revolver.
The victim in the 2nd bear story got off two shots with a bolt action, before the bear killed him. No one knows the details of that story because he didn't survive. Investigators surmised one shot might have been fired in the effort to scare the bear off. I think they felt this way largely because the victim was a very accomplished rifleman. Two shots were fired from a 280 Remington, and they found no blood trail from the bear, or other confirmation the bear was hit. Two solid hits from a .280 Remington would more than likely have resulted in at least some evidence of a wounded or dead bear. They always put a lot of effort into locating the bear following a mauling like this, because a wounded bear may be even more likely to attack the next person it encounters. No blood trail - no bear - were ever found.
Last fall a 50-something year old man from Texas came to the Kenai Peninsula to hunt moose with his brother, who lives locally. The local brother was attempting to call in a bull moose. Instead of a moose, a sow brown bear came to the call, and when it saw the Texan - charged him. He got one shot off with a 300 Win Mag before the bear began mauling him. His brother heard the shot and screams from a short distance away and came running to assist. He shot the bear off his brother sufficiently that the sow ran off and was later found dead ~100yds away. Texan may not have survived this one without the brother's help.
I provide these stories as an example of how quickly a committed bear can put you down. The undecided bears give a a guy with a lot more time to respond. But if they're determined and come runnin', you'll have very little time to stop them.
I've got good details on a number of additional bear attack stories, some survived and some deaths, collected over my 40yrs in Alaska. They're all cause for intense listening. These incidents are the basis for my preference for an overpowering one-shot one-kill cartridge/bullet for close range bear defense.
Dale Bagley had time to get one shot with his Rem semi-auto 30-06 after the bear charged from ~35yds, as I recall his story. This semi-auto jammed after that round and the bear pancaked him to the ground before he could draw his .44 Mag Revolver.
The victim in the 2nd bear story got off two shots with a bolt action, before the bear killed him. No one knows the details of that story because he didn't survive. Investigators surmised one shot might have been fired in the effort to scare the bear off. I think they felt this way largely because the victim was a very accomplished rifleman. Two shots were fired from a 280 Remington, and they found no blood trail from the bear, or other confirmation the bear was hit. Two solid hits from a .280 Remington would more than likely have resulted in at least some evidence of a wounded or dead bear. They always put a lot of effort into locating the bear following a mauling like this, because a wounded bear may be even more likely to attack the next person it encounters. No blood trail - no bear - were ever found.
Last fall a 50-something year old man from Texas came to the Kenai Peninsula to hunt moose with his brother, who lives locally. The local brother was attempting to call in a bull moose. Instead of a moose, a sow brown bear came to the call, and when it saw the Texan - charged him. He got one shot off with a 300 Win Mag before the bear began mauling him. His brother heard the shot and screams from a short distance away and came running to assist. He shot the bear off his brother sufficiently that the sow ran off and was later found dead ~100yds away. Texan may not have survived this one without the brother's help.
I provide these stories as an example of how quickly a committed bear can put you down. The undecided bears give a a guy with a lot more time to respond. But if they're determined and come runnin', you'll have very little time to stop them.
I've got good details on a number of additional bear attack stories, some survived and some deaths, collected over my 40yrs in Alaska. They're all cause for intense listening. These incidents are the basis for my preference for an overpowering one-shot one-kill cartridge/bullet for close range bear defense.
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TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
300gr bullets with the 458 socom run about 1800FPS
Not a wimp, but I doubt it would be overpowering and deflate large brown bear with a single shot. I have no feedback on less common cartridges. Not enough of them in use.
Here's some energy / KO values for that cartridge:
300gr @ ~1,800fps _ Muzzle Energy 2,157ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 35
Here's the specs on the 2 3/4" 12 gauge Brenneke Maximum Barrier Penetrator Magnum slug, for comparison: Caliber = .730
600gr @ ~1,600fps _ Muzzle Energy 3,400ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 100
The guys I know using .458 Win Mags load 400 - 500gr bullets:
400gr @ ~2,400fps _ Muzzle Energy 5,115ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 62
450gr @ ~2,200fps _ Muzzle Energy 4,835ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 64
500gr @ ~2,150fps _ Muzzle Energy 5,131ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 70
Here's the energy values of a .338 Lapua Improved, for comparison:
300gr @ ~3,000fps _ Muzzle Energy 5,994ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 43
The Taylor KO value is considered to be more valid for the larger caliber, lower MV cartridges. Those are the types of cartridges/bullets Taylor used in Africa back in his days. It doesn't assign as much value to velocity as it does bullet weight and caliber.
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
Interesting, not familiar with the KO rating but could you do .577 750gr at 2400FPS.
Yeah the 458socom is no power house but I could potentially put a lot of ordnance on target in rapid succession.
Yeah the 458socom is no power house but I could potentially put a lot of ordnance on target in rapid succession.
That's a bear thumper that may also knock down the shooter in a carry weight rifle. Better have a good muzzle brake.
750gr @ ~2,400fps _ Muzzle Energy 9,590ft-lbs, Taylor KO Value = 148
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
Yeah those are numbers for the .577 Tyranasaur it would flatten both the bear and the shooter
86alaskan
Well-Known Member
I agree that the KO value is more important in that one chance panic shot. There are lots of rounds that can and do kill bears, some of them very large. But like it's been hashed out, if you need the protection you want knock down, not bleed out. I could carry my sig 9mm fishing for it's capacity, and with enough good hits in the right spots it could kill one of these bears. But instead I opt for 45colt +P 325gr WFN hard cast out of a rossi 92 carbine. it holds 9 rounds and shoots pretty darn fast. That way i can send some serious penetrating power into what ever needs to be stopped. I would carry my benelli, but it's kind of long and no conducive to tight fast shooting.
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
the KO value makes sense to me in this aspect in being able to stop a charge. Just looking at the numbers phorwath My 458 socom with its measly 2200ftlbs isn't too far behind in KO value compared to an improved 338LM with nearly 3times the kenetic energy. This goes back to the analogy between the 5.56 and the 458 socom when it was being developed for special forces in a sense of being hit by a baseball vs medicine ball.
Paparock
Previously Rocky W.Latham
You can't kill what you can't hit so there are limits to "firepower" and to "killing power". The "average" individual" has a hard time mastering anything over a .375 H&H and even then many can't handle that referring to it as the .375 Ouch and Ouch. When dealing with anything that can hunt you back and or kill you it is wise to shoot the largest caliber with the largest toughest bullets you can shoot accurately least you join your ancestors sooner than you had hoped for. Even then dealing with "dangerous game" nothing is ever a given even when dealing with the lowly black bear as a friend of mine found out the hard way after one killed him and used him for food for two days before we terminated Yogi. NEVER take anything for granted as I have seen a man in a deer camp I was in as a teenager that was "accidentally" killed by a whitetail buck "running dead" after the guys last shot killed the buck but as the bucks head dropped his tines speared him through the chest and the guy died. A fellow deer stander saw the whole thing. If it's moving it can kill you, even Bambi. A "dead poisonous snake" can still bite you if you are careless handling them. If you give dangerous people or animals a chance they will injure or kill you.
Those of us who have hunted men, been hunted by other men as well as by dangerous animals and have survived have learned not to give them a chance to strike you. If they have shown their intent is to kill given the chance you make sure they are dead before you approach them. If you ever see a professional hunter approach a Cape Buffalo or an Elephant you know what I am talking about. As long as there is a flicker of life in them you are in danger. That is why they tap the eye as that is the last reflex to leave. If they react you shoot them again, instantly if you value your life!
Those of us who have hunted men, been hunted by other men as well as by dangerous animals and have survived have learned not to give them a chance to strike you. If they have shown their intent is to kill given the chance you make sure they are dead before you approach them. If you ever see a professional hunter approach a Cape Buffalo or an Elephant you know what I am talking about. As long as there is a flicker of life in them you are in danger. That is why they tap the eye as that is the last reflex to leave. If they react you shoot them again, instantly if you value your life!
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
I read A post on Facebook that said muzzle brakes make hunting dangerous game more dangerous. My thoughts were from what I've seen, dangerous game hunting isn't really any different than hunting anything else until a bad shot is made for any number of reason. One which could be the shooter being afraid of a hard kicking rifle.
