rimfire... who pushes buttons? That seems like a very difficult set of problems to over come. To put the much force on a rod thin enough to fit in the barrel without it bending, canting the button and rubbing on the rifling and ..... seems much much harder to control than pulling. I guess if the pusher rod was a tight fit in the bore and maybe a different button geometry than "normal". I will be glad to hear the pro side of that process.
Cut rifling vs button rifling
- Thread starter locotrician
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica] Button rifling is a barrel making process, in which a carbide button is pushed through a rifle barrel under pressure to displace metal to make the twist in a barrel. We believe that this type of rifling method is superior to other methods as it maintains a more uniform twist rate and depth of groove. Once you have a good button every barrel is the same as the last. Other methods require many passes to make one barrel, making it more difficult to produce uniform results.
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica] Fluting allows you to use a larger diameter barrel with the same weight as a smaller barrel. The smallest barrel we will flute is .650 at the muzzle. We recommend that you allow us to flute your barrel, as fluting is done before the final lapping, thus allowing us to maintain our guaranteed specifications. We offer six flutes, eight flutes (minimum muzzle diameter of .870), interrupted fluting, and octagon.
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Rifling
Might as well add my 2 cents!
This debate will never be settled because of different opinions
and experiences but there is an answer that should get an
"Amen" from most.
Simply put : The Quality of the barrel makes the difference
not the method used to make the rifling. any method not done
properly will not perform.
Ther is another method used to produce rifling called Hammer
Forging it is used on the ultimate long range rifles (navy 16'' guns
with an accurace of 50 feet at 18 Miles).
I have used all types of rifling and found with proper procedures
during manufacture and good smithing practice they will all perform
better than most people can shoot.
As to the issue of different grades of barrels! during manufacture
tolerances will vary so the barrel maker can reject or accept based
on there preference. And he can offer a barrel at a lower cost to
customers that are not as demanding as some of Us.
I ask Lilja why he buttoned instead of cut his rifling and his reply was
(If it was better I would) And I beleve him.
Lilja flutes his barrels and shillen does not. when I ask shillen why
not? he said I'm not setup to do it and don't warranty if done by
someone else because (If done improperly it will effect accuracy and
safety)
Lilja does his in house and has control of the process ,I am not setup
to flute so I would have Lilja do mine.
As far as delivery from lilja I have only ordered a few barrels from him
and he met the 8 to 10 week PROMISED delivery date .
Every manufacture will claim there product is the best and well they
should but it's really the gun smith and the end user that determines
that.
Get the best barrel and gun smith (In your opinion) and the outcome
should be very good .
J E CUSTOM
Might as well add my 2 cents!
This debate will never be settled because of different opinions
and experiences but there is an answer that should get an
"Amen" from most.
Simply put : The Quality of the barrel makes the difference
not the method used to make the rifling. any method not done
properly will not perform.
Ther is another method used to produce rifling called Hammer
Forging it is used on the ultimate long range rifles (navy 16'' guns
with an accurace of 50 feet at 18 Miles).
I have used all types of rifling and found with proper procedures
during manufacture and good smithing practice they will all perform
better than most people can shoot.
As to the issue of different grades of barrels! during manufacture
tolerances will vary so the barrel maker can reject or accept based
on there preference. And he can offer a barrel at a lower cost to
customers that are not as demanding as some of Us.
I ask Lilja why he buttoned instead of cut his rifling and his reply was
(If it was better I would) And I beleve him.
Lilja flutes his barrels and shillen does not. when I ask shillen why
not? he said I'm not setup to do it and don't warranty if done by
someone else because (If done improperly it will effect accuracy and
safety)
Lilja does his in house and has control of the process ,I am not setup
to flute so I would have Lilja do mine.
As far as delivery from lilja I have only ordered a few barrels from him
and he met the 8 to 10 week PROMISED delivery date .
Every manufacture will claim there product is the best and well they
should but it's really the gun smith and the end user that determines
that.
Get the best barrel and gun smith (In your opinion) and the outcome
should be very good .
J E CUSTOM
AAAAmen brothers. Time to close this sermon.
BH
BH
locotrician
Invisible
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2007
- Messages
- 181
Now why would someone want to close this, i asked the question because i wanted to learn and i am getting some valuable information and opinions so why close it ? (bounty hunter)
I agree, this is a very informative thread!
Question. How is stress taken out of the barrel?
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Rogue
The barrel is heated to a predetermined temperature based on the material
and held for a predetermined time and then cooled down slowly in a furnace.
I heard the term Stress relieve used more than once on this thread
and I think this needs to be cleared up!!
A barrel that has been stress relieved still has some stresses because
if you go high enough to remove all of the stress it would ruin the barrel
because the temperature would be above yield for the material (1800 to
2400 degrees) and thats what is called an anneal.
All that a stress relieve does is reduce the stress to a reasonable level
and make the material more stable
I'm sure we have a metallurgist on this web site that could explain it
much better.
Maybe Specweldtom will chime in and help ?
J E CUSTOM
The barrel is heated to a predetermined temperature based on the material
and held for a predetermined time and then cooled down slowly in a furnace.
I heard the term Stress relieve used more than once on this thread
and I think this needs to be cleared up!!
A barrel that has been stress relieved still has some stresses because
if you go high enough to remove all of the stress it would ruin the barrel
because the temperature would be above yield for the material (1800 to
2400 degrees) and thats what is called an anneal.
All that a stress relieve does is reduce the stress to a reasonable level
and make the material more stable
I'm sure we have a metallurgist on this web site that could explain it
much better.
Maybe Specweldtom will chime in and help ?
J E CUSTOM
Last edited:
I am not a Gun Smith nor any kind of expert. I am just trying to learn and understand.
If a barrel has stress, does this not mean that it has tension within the metal? When the tension is relived, will the metal not then move?
NYLES
Well-Known Member
Go to Lilja's FAQ page Dan talks about it and while your there look at fluting he talks about stress relief there too!
specweldtom
Well-Known Member
You have to take "stress relief" literally. It doesn't mean "stress elimination". Thermal stress relief describes a sub-critical process (below the temperature that would cause internal granular changes) which removes some of the stresses trapped in the material that were caused by forging, rolling, welding,or other working, by heating it to a point where slip planes can occur in the structure of the material and allow relaxation of peak locked-in stresses first and more slowly and less effectively for lower stresses. It won't eliminate all stresses. I don't know much about the cryogenic treatments or their effect on stresses, if any. Also, there is a type of mechanical (vibratory) stress relief that I haven't seen to be effective.
Worth noting: if a material has been stressed past it's elastic limit, (beyond its yield strength), stress relief can not return it to its original shape. Example: a barrel bent by a mishap won't straighten by stress relief, or a button rifled barrel will not return to its original un-rifled state by stress relieving it. Thank goodness!
Bottom line finally; after stress relieving a barrel, some stresses remain trapped, and the material can and probably will creep and crawl measurably if enough material is removed (fluting), or the material is upset (pushed around and compacted) by button rifling. All the barrel makers mentioned have learned how and when to remove enough stresses to enable them to provide stable, straight, uniform, superbly accurate barrels without damaging the material they are made of. Let's hear it for the barrel makers. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!
I hope I managed to say what I meant to, and that it helps. Tom
Worth noting: if a material has been stressed past it's elastic limit, (beyond its yield strength), stress relief can not return it to its original shape. Example: a barrel bent by a mishap won't straighten by stress relief, or a button rifled barrel will not return to its original un-rifled state by stress relieving it. Thank goodness!
Bottom line finally; after stress relieving a barrel, some stresses remain trapped, and the material can and probably will creep and crawl measurably if enough material is removed (fluting), or the material is upset (pushed around and compacted) by button rifling. All the barrel makers mentioned have learned how and when to remove enough stresses to enable them to provide stable, straight, uniform, superbly accurate barrels without damaging the material they are made of. Let's hear it for the barrel makers. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!
I hope I managed to say what I meant to, and that it helps. Tom
BLOODHOUND BRO
Well-Known Member
Not trying to dig up bones here, but this was a great read! Does anybody have any insight to add to this topic 8 years later?
