Wedgy
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- Feb 9, 2013
- Messages
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I have shot #5's on geese and a 78 yard coyote...dead, and #9's from a 20 gauge on two turkeys and some chukar.
Wolf down
- Thread starter BrentM
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daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
Nice results Wedgy. Earl now has me thinking that TSS acts more like FMJ bullets...Hmmm.
Beautiful rifle there Brent... especially since it's left handed...LOL. Do you have a detailed thread on that setup somewhere?
Beautiful rifle there Brent... especially since it's left handed...LOL. Do you have a detailed thread on that setup somewhere?
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BrentM
Well-Known Member
I don't have a detailed thread on the build. It's a big horn TL three short action with three optional heads; small standard and magnum. Proof research barrel. Thunder beast ultra 7 suppressor. Leupold vx 6. Mdt lss xl chassis with folder. Lots of machining to reduce weight. It is 10lbs.
daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
Only 10 lbs... now that is sweet. What caliber switch barrels do you have for it.
BrentM
Well-Known Member
204, 22-250, 223, 243, 6.5 creed, 6.5 prc.
daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
WOW.... you are defiantly my New Hero....LOL.
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Lmao. Adding a 6 creed. I'm in the process of building a Thompson center contender pro hunter long range pistol in that cartridge. I would like to have a barrel set up for PRS con and that cartridge as well
daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
I have that same pistol with a 45/70 barrel that I got from TC back in the 90's when I Co-Produced Quest Hunting Videos. They sponsored that video. Killed a few deer with it... powerful caliber. Even killed a groundhog in VA at 225 yds... took it's head right off on the second shot it gave me. I quit shooting that pistol because it's not a long range caliber... which is what i love the most... but you have given me some new ideas....Hmmm.
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Been working with Ernie Bishop to decide on cartridge. Lots to choose from but it fits the build desires. Long range wolf pistol and may chase mule deer. I primarily bow hunt for big game but pistol hunting sounds fun for deer potentially
daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
I use to be 90% bowhunter...even bowhunted during our rifle seasons, which is loong. Some times I packed the TC along for longer shot opportunities. My bowhunting passion is still there, but I can feel the long range stuff pushing that passion to the side. I could be chasing deer and or hogs right now during the rest of this month, but all I can think about is shooting wolves... mostly long distance. I built a long range coyote rifle in 22-243AI loaded with 80 gr Amaxes @3558 fps that sure does reach out there and get coyotes...and thought about using it on wolves. I know that getting a wolf in your sights is the super hard part vs the caliber choice.. but you sure don't want to blow your few and far in between shot opportunities if you get them. The 6.5 prc. has gotten me to thinking a lot. Hmmmm....
I've got some experience patterning TSS shot, and killing a number of Sandhill Cranes and finishing one wounded grizzly bear, with Tungsten shotshells. Commonly referred to as (TSS) Tungsten Super Shot.
The first thing to understand, is forget everything you've experienced and learned using lead shotshells throughout your life. Those are like Daisy BB guns compared to TSS shotshells. You'll just about have to experience the difference to believe it.
We've killed Sandhill cranes using 1 7/8oz #6 TSS, 1 7/8oz #5 TSS, and a 2oz duplex load consisting of 1oz #5s & 1oz #4s. The farthest clean kill on a Sandhill crane was by me at a distance between 130 - 135yds with the 2oz duplex load. The crane was flying broadside, was hit in the body with 4 pellets throught the thickest part of the body, all 4 pellets passed completely thru the crane. The crane was dead when it hit the ground. I think it was hit with 2 additional pellets in less substantial areas, but the 4 solid body hits caused the lights out affect. Full disclosure, it wasn't the crane I was aiming for. The crane I hit was trailing 4 feet behind, and 2 feet lower than the bird I targeted.
My buddy killed a crane at 99yds, broadside in flight with the #6 TSS load (1 7/8oz). Hit it with about 6 pellets, complete pass thru's. This crane hit the ground hard, and then 15-20 seconds, was back on its feet, but couldn't get away. Based on that crane, I think 100yds is about the limit for #6 TSS pellets on body hit Sandhills. #4 and #5 TSS pellets are good to at least 135yds on body hit Sandhills.
TSS shotshell pellets are effective at ranges to the point you actually need to carry a lazer range finder, to take full advantage of their lethality. I snuck up on one crane and estimated his distance at 100 yds, without the benefit of a rangefinder. I aimed 18"-24" high, and shot over him. My shotgun is dead on at 80yds. But at 100yds, the farthest I've patterned it, it drops about 18 more inches. Always carry my Leica 1600 now.
I don't have all my patterning data with me at this time. I believe my 2oz duplex load shot 76% of its pellets into a 30" circle at 80yds, and 51% of its pellets into a 30" circle at 100yds. If I can get a crane in the pattern at 100yds, it's a 100% kill rate. TSS is perfectly round, suffers no deformation upon ignition like lead pellets, and can shoot amazingly tight patterns. I try to not even pull the trigger on a crane at 60yds or less, because it'll look like a sieve if I dead center it. I typically insert a TSS shell in the magazine for a 3rd shot for cranes, hoping for a distant straightaway shot as birds escaping the first two shots turn and head out.
As to buckshot sized TSS pellets, I agree with everything Earl Fouraker stated in his posts about its use on large game. Earl and I exchanged a lot of information as we experimented with TSS buckshot. I got into TSS buckshot for the purpose of developing the ultimate close range, in-your-face bear killing ammo. As in a full blown bear attack, or walking into the brush trailing a wounded bear.
Earl killed a number of hogs and deer with his TSS buckshot loads before I finally had the need to use one on a wounded grizzly bear, in willows and alders. The load consisted of 1* - 0000B pellet, and 12* - 1B pellets. The 0000B is ~0.38" in diameter and weighs 128grains (compared to lead 00B 0.33" diameter, weighing ~53grains). The 1B pellets are ~0.30" in diameter and weigh 64grains each. The 0000B TSS pellet penetrated 14" into a large, live birch tree trunk, and the 1B TSS pellets penetrated about 9" into the same birch tree trunk. The grizzly wasn't a huge bear, as grizzly's go. He sat up at about 10yds, and was hit square in the brisket. The pattern would have been maybe 5" in diameter at that range. The blast rolled the bear over to the ground. But he wasn't lights out dead. Was shot in the chest because his head wasn't visible in the willow brush. My son then loaded a 1 3/8oz Brenneke slug and shot it in the chest again. That time it was lights out. All of the TSS pellets passed thru the bear, but it was as if arrow shafts had penetrated and exited the bear. Little to no blood leaking out of the 13 holes on either side of the bear. My experience mimicked Earl's on southern hogs and whitetails.
I never crafted the TSS buckshot shells for body hits on bear. It was intended for head shots, and I'm certain they would be instant death within 30yds on any head shot bear, brown, grizzly, or black. We take the Rem 870 shotgun and TSS buckshot shells into sheep/caribou base camp. I consider it the ultimate charging bear stopper. The buckshot pattern allows for a little forgiveness in dead-centering the bear's brain during close range contact. I'm also confident the buckshot pellets would break a close range bear's shoulder or hips, if that sort of shot was the best afforded. But I wouldn't chest shoot them in the lungs. The TSS pellets lack the shock effect transferred by large deformed lead buckshot, or the shock effect of an expanding high-powered rifle bullet.
If anyone chose to duplicate my bear defense load, make sure to use a ported choke tube if using a short shotgun barrel. My 870 barrels are 18 1/2" & 20" long. The muzzle gas blast on the base of the shot cup from short barrels blows the base of the shot cup off-center the instant it leaves the muzzle. With longer 26-28" barrels, not so much. But I couldn't get the tight patterns from my 18 1/2" barrels until I used a ported choke tube. The ports direct a lot of the gases to the sides, and less muzzle blast hits the base of the plastic shot cup. My buckshot pattern diameters were reduced by half, with the ported Kicks choke tube, compared to choke tubes with no ports.
As far as timber wolf hunting with TSS shotshells? 1stly, I think a guy would be better served with a rifle most of the time. More wolves will be encountered beyond TSS shotshell range. But if a guy could call wolves in regularly enough to consider use of a shotgun, I think the proper size pellets in 12ga TSS shotshells would allow consistent kills out to 100yds. Earl uses 10ga shotshells. He can load 3, even 3 1/2oz of TSS in his 10ga. With a 3oz load from a 10ga, I think timber wolves could be consistently killed at 125-130yds. But you'll need to know the range past 80-90yds, because the pellets will start dropping significantly beyond.
Instead of buckshot, I'd recommend BB, or BBB sized tungsten pellets. I think either size would completely penetrate a broadside wolf out to 120yds. I can't see the value in expending larger-sized TSS pellet energy in the dirt beyond the wolf. Better to increase pattern density. Besides talking maximum reliable killing range, I'm confident any broadside wolf body hit with a load of BB or BBB sized TSS pellets within 80yds will be pancaked. At 50yds on in, they most likely won't even twitch.
I've snared and skinned a number of Alaska timber wolves. Like Brent stated, they're thin-skinned and not particularly heavy boned. Their bodies are much less stought than a whitetail deer. Adults usually weigh 70-105lbs, depending on sex. Big ones maybe 125lbs. Heard of a few monsters weighing more, just never seen one myself.
Wolves are a real challenge to hunt. Even if you're good at it, you'll come back empty handed way more often than not. Thumbs up to Brent! I doubt that a timber wolf has been killed with TSS pellets in North America. Never heard of one. TSS shot pellets only been around for maybe 5-7yrs, to my knowledge. And that grizzly we finished with TSS buckshot is likely the only bear ever shot with TSS in North America.
The first thing to understand, is forget everything you've experienced and learned using lead shotshells throughout your life. Those are like Daisy BB guns compared to TSS shotshells. You'll just about have to experience the difference to believe it.
We've killed Sandhill cranes using 1 7/8oz #6 TSS, 1 7/8oz #5 TSS, and a 2oz duplex load consisting of 1oz #5s & 1oz #4s. The farthest clean kill on a Sandhill crane was by me at a distance between 130 - 135yds with the 2oz duplex load. The crane was flying broadside, was hit in the body with 4 pellets throught the thickest part of the body, all 4 pellets passed completely thru the crane. The crane was dead when it hit the ground. I think it was hit with 2 additional pellets in less substantial areas, but the 4 solid body hits caused the lights out affect. Full disclosure, it wasn't the crane I was aiming for. The crane I hit was trailing 4 feet behind, and 2 feet lower than the bird I targeted.
My buddy killed a crane at 99yds, broadside in flight with the #6 TSS load (1 7/8oz). Hit it with about 6 pellets, complete pass thru's. This crane hit the ground hard, and then 15-20 seconds, was back on its feet, but couldn't get away. Based on that crane, I think 100yds is about the limit for #6 TSS pellets on body hit Sandhills. #4 and #5 TSS pellets are good to at least 135yds on body hit Sandhills.
TSS shotshell pellets are effective at ranges to the point you actually need to carry a lazer range finder, to take full advantage of their lethality. I snuck up on one crane and estimated his distance at 100 yds, without the benefit of a rangefinder. I aimed 18"-24" high, and shot over him. My shotgun is dead on at 80yds. But at 100yds, the farthest I've patterned it, it drops about 18 more inches. Always carry my Leica 1600 now.
I don't have all my patterning data with me at this time. I believe my 2oz duplex load shot 76% of its pellets into a 30" circle at 80yds, and 51% of its pellets into a 30" circle at 100yds. If I can get a crane in the pattern at 100yds, it's a 100% kill rate. TSS is perfectly round, suffers no deformation upon ignition like lead pellets, and can shoot amazingly tight patterns. I try to not even pull the trigger on a crane at 60yds or less, because it'll look like a sieve if I dead center it. I typically insert a TSS shell in the magazine for a 3rd shot for cranes, hoping for a distant straightaway shot as birds escaping the first two shots turn and head out.
As to buckshot sized TSS pellets, I agree with everything Earl Fouraker stated in his posts about its use on large game. Earl and I exchanged a lot of information as we experimented with TSS buckshot. I got into TSS buckshot for the purpose of developing the ultimate close range, in-your-face bear killing ammo. As in a full blown bear attack, or walking into the brush trailing a wounded bear.
Earl killed a number of hogs and deer with his TSS buckshot loads before I finally had the need to use one on a wounded grizzly bear, in willows and alders. The load consisted of 1* - 0000B pellet, and 12* - 1B pellets. The 0000B is ~0.38" in diameter and weighs 128grains (compared to lead 00B 0.33" diameter, weighing ~53grains). The 1B pellets are ~0.30" in diameter and weigh 64grains each. The 0000B TSS pellet penetrated 14" into a large, live birch tree trunk, and the 1B TSS pellets penetrated about 9" into the same birch tree trunk. The grizzly wasn't a huge bear, as grizzly's go. He sat up at about 10yds, and was hit square in the brisket. The pattern would have been maybe 5" in diameter at that range. The blast rolled the bear over to the ground. But he wasn't lights out dead. Was shot in the chest because his head wasn't visible in the willow brush. My son then loaded a 1 3/8oz Brenneke slug and shot it in the chest again. That time it was lights out. All of the TSS pellets passed thru the bear, but it was as if arrow shafts had penetrated and exited the bear. Little to no blood leaking out of the 13 holes on either side of the bear. My experience mimicked Earl's on southern hogs and whitetails.
I never crafted the TSS buckshot shells for body hits on bear. It was intended for head shots, and I'm certain they would be instant death within 30yds on any head shot bear, brown, grizzly, or black. We take the Rem 870 shotgun and TSS buckshot shells into sheep/caribou base camp. I consider it the ultimate charging bear stopper. The buckshot pattern allows for a little forgiveness in dead-centering the bear's brain during close range contact. I'm also confident the buckshot pellets would break a close range bear's shoulder or hips, if that sort of shot was the best afforded. But I wouldn't chest shoot them in the lungs. The TSS pellets lack the shock effect transferred by large deformed lead buckshot, or the shock effect of an expanding high-powered rifle bullet.
If anyone chose to duplicate my bear defense load, make sure to use a ported choke tube if using a short shotgun barrel. My 870 barrels are 18 1/2" & 20" long. The muzzle gas blast on the base of the shot cup from short barrels blows the base of the shot cup off-center the instant it leaves the muzzle. With longer 26-28" barrels, not so much. But I couldn't get the tight patterns from my 18 1/2" barrels until I used a ported choke tube. The ports direct a lot of the gases to the sides, and less muzzle blast hits the base of the plastic shot cup. My buckshot pattern diameters were reduced by half, with the ported Kicks choke tube, compared to choke tubes with no ports.
As far as timber wolf hunting with TSS shotshells? 1stly, I think a guy would be better served with a rifle most of the time. More wolves will be encountered beyond TSS shotshell range. But if a guy could call wolves in regularly enough to consider use of a shotgun, I think the proper size pellets in 12ga TSS shotshells would allow consistent kills out to 100yds. Earl uses 10ga shotshells. He can load 3, even 3 1/2oz of TSS in his 10ga. With a 3oz load from a 10ga, I think timber wolves could be consistently killed at 125-130yds. But you'll need to know the range past 80-90yds, because the pellets will start dropping significantly beyond.
Instead of buckshot, I'd recommend BB, or BBB sized tungsten pellets. I think either size would completely penetrate a broadside wolf out to 120yds. I can't see the value in expending larger-sized TSS pellet energy in the dirt beyond the wolf. Better to increase pattern density. Besides talking maximum reliable killing range, I'm confident any broadside wolf body hit with a load of BB or BBB sized TSS pellets within 80yds will be pancaked. At 50yds on in, they most likely won't even twitch.
I've snared and skinned a number of Alaska timber wolves. Like Brent stated, they're thin-skinned and not particularly heavy boned. Their bodies are much less stought than a whitetail deer. Adults usually weigh 70-105lbs, depending on sex. Big ones maybe 125lbs. Heard of a few monsters weighing more, just never seen one myself.
Wolves are a real challenge to hunt. Even if you're good at it, you'll come back empty handed way more often than not. Thumbs up to Brent! I doubt that a timber wolf has been killed with TSS pellets in North America. Never heard of one. TSS shot pellets only been around for maybe 5-7yrs, to my knowledge. And that grizzly we finished with TSS buckshot is likely the only bear ever shot with TSS in North America.
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VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
I'm putting together a 25-284 to shoot the 131 Blackjacks. Pushing that bullet at 3200 fps should be excellent poison for antelope which is why I'm building it. After reading this thread, it sounds like it's be a great predator round too. Maybe a bit more than needed for coyotes but for range, it's the right set up for anything.
daniel brothers
Well-Known Member
WOW... phorwath.... what an Awesome write up... WOW. Will have to read that a few times to allow all the information to soak in...LOL.
VLD Pilot... That caliber and bullet combo could be wicked indeed. With my 22-243AI... I've run A LOT ballistic loads on different calibers and bullet size.... and have not found anything that equals or surpasses the small bullet drops and wind drifts as this caliber... some are close... which are more than adequate.... but not quit the same to me. I only built it for one purpose... long range coyotes or anything that gets in the way...LOL. It makes everything drop in it's tracks...even deer. It shoots 90 gr bergers very well also. At the same time, I also built a 20-250AI shooting 55 gr Bergers at 3770 fps... which is my real Baby. It tipped over it's first coyote @ 631 yds with the first shot in Nebraska a few years back. Both rifles have the very same ballistics out to 600 yds... then the 22-243 starts to do better. An antelope kill out to 400 yds would be a chip shot without even moving the turrets... not even a challenge. That's why I think hard about using it on wolves.... BUT.... I'm open to new heavier weight bullet calibers as well... I'm all ears.
Wolf Down is a very good thread... and I have learned new stuff everyday from it... thanks OP.. and others.
VLD Pilot... That caliber and bullet combo could be wicked indeed. With my 22-243AI... I've run A LOT ballistic loads on different calibers and bullet size.... and have not found anything that equals or surpasses the small bullet drops and wind drifts as this caliber... some are close... which are more than adequate.... but not quit the same to me. I only built it for one purpose... long range coyotes or anything that gets in the way...LOL. It makes everything drop in it's tracks...even deer. It shoots 90 gr bergers very well also. At the same time, I also built a 20-250AI shooting 55 gr Bergers at 3770 fps... which is my real Baby. It tipped over it's first coyote @ 631 yds with the first shot in Nebraska a few years back. Both rifles have the very same ballistics out to 600 yds... then the 22-243 starts to do better. An antelope kill out to 400 yds would be a chip shot without even moving the turrets... not even a challenge. That's why I think hard about using it on wolves.... BUT.... I'm open to new heavier weight bullet calibers as well... I'm all ears.
Wolf Down is a very good thread... and I have learned new stuff everyday from it... thanks OP.. and others.
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VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty happy with my 22-250 AI running 80amax into the 3500 fps range with fantastic accuracy. Almost did a 22-243 Improved or 22-284 but decided on the 250 case. I've flipped over alot of ground hogs at almost 10 football field distances and was really surprised at the wicked damage that bullet does at that range. Hard to see entrance but exits are golf ball size. I love that round. Lazer like trajectory. The 25-284 will be the bigger brother to that smaller 250 case with heavier bullets. I'll be thumping coyotes as well with it. The prelude to my antelope hunt.
