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Discussion in 'Extreme Long Range Hunting & Shooting (ELR)' started by WWB, Sep 10, 2019.
Life is chasing the ever changing winds,,, get out there with your irons and bullets to find out how they fly in different situations...
Keep track of this info for future reference...
Life is just that simple...
No instruction required whatsoever, huh?
Just go out and shoot case after case of ammo at random targets until you kind of get a feel for it.....
Heck of a plan.
I took his post as saying get out yourself and learn, pay attention to what happens. Nothing was said about burning ammo. Most capable individuals like to think they learned on their own, and with key hints and the right direction they can.
You could shoot in the mtn's 5 days in a row, same location, same predominant winds and never have 2 identical conditions, or cross the ridge and be in opposite conditions. Same on the prairie but more predictable.
Reading wind I believe is an acquired skill, yes we pick up tidbits, but until you experience it, it is only theory. Personally, when it comes to anything shooting, I'd rather talk to people who are self taught and lived it, than someone repeating what they think they know because they were told, or have read.
From several perspectives, you are absolutely right and or I agree. But watch out for the the "Law of Primacy." This is where an instructor who was taught absolute crap, passes the crap down through the ranks over the years until Shooters Miss regularly, do not make it through their military courses, and programs are and have been destroyed. (You know when the programs are destroyed as the best in the military place last or near last in the competitions; like last year and the year before). Then there are the few that have been instructed properly. IF you are interested in learning stuff that you may not have ever heard before, come to the MSC. I have attached a short Capability Statement that highlights some of those that I have worked with. It is just the highlights. Come and take a course at the MSC.
First, I am rather adept at wind reading. 2nd, I am not a hunter, so hanging around in high country to shoot is not something I would do. Never the less pay for instruction.
I did not enter this post to say you are doing things wrong, far from that.
I look at wind differently than most, I consider wind being over 25 mph, even then it is just air flow of a broad area. You can have 10-15 mile corridors, 50 mile, or 3-500 mile areas where that speed is just the flow of air. So when I talk winds, constants are easy, gusts present issues, now throw in terrain changes and now we have a discussion.
Why do winds funnel, why don't they turn sharper corners instead of crawling up and out at great speeds, why wont the bulk of it flow over that hill instead of splitting and gain force to regain it's lost place? You are shooting this direction but have two draws off to the left with wind coming down both, why does one of them yield considerably more volume? Wind is a mystery, but looking over the terrain and anticipating goes a long way. How can you be in a draw or coulee and the wind is whistling at the top, yet there is no breeze at all below where we stand. And then there are times when you know there is something going on, but you cannot see the vegetation move, no discernable mirage, you must break that one shot to learn as Don pointed out, and build from that shot, and that is why I am here, we do not learn speculating.
When I first got into LR shooting, reading, listening, learning one of the first misconceptions I encountered was wind for the first 3rd of flight path had the most bearing on the shot. I guess if firing location is at the pinnacle of the funnel, or up or downdraft, it may be, but this has been so untrue in my experience. Maybe to 500 yards it plays, and of coarse setting up to shoot in an easier access location does too, most likely not on the edge of specific patterns. I witness more missed shots based off wind readings taken at the shooting position, even after they have driven the range to paint targets and felt the difference w/o absorbing the info.
I have access to a range I helped build that goes to 2100 yards, I average shooting 3 times a week. Last night we were banging a IPSC at 1350 & 1450 with Dashers in 12-20mph winds. <By saying that, I am not saying I am good, or accomplished, just saying I pay attention to details most miss.
Unless it is a new haircut for the wife, or the time she bought some different color contact lenses and changed her eye color, I miss that crap, and pay for it.
That is correct,,, check the ballistics of the cartridge we want to use,,, head to the hills and take notes on where the bullets land on target,,, nothing wrong with finding out if the printed ballistics chart is inline with the actual test run of live ammo...
6700 feet at 72F on a 27 degree angle down hill might work one day,,, not so much for the next...
The only way for me to know this is putting the boots on the ground and a few bullets threw the pipe...
Keep notes on this since they might come in handy,,, at least we can adjust things with the help of our ballistics app in combination that might better our odds of getting onto target faster...
Going this route works for me,,, other can pick and choose what works for them,,, no skin off my back what other folks do to lesson the odds of fly'ers...
Ballistic charts and my personal notes work hand in hand in my shooting sports and hunting...
My notes come in real handy when I try to reach waaaaay out there,,, that's what really counts in my books...
Good luck finding what works for each shooter,,, good times fore sure.
Cheers from the North...
PS: Don't Kidd your self,,, I still to this day struggle getting hits on the 12" iron gong at 1450 yards,,, normally I can get onto it in the 5th or 7th shot,,, my first attempt at this was 50 shots with 1 hit,,, Ha...
I'll admit that I've come alooooong ways since I've started keeping notes... The biggest challenge is catching the full value of the ever changing winds before launching the shot...
Very challanging indeed...
Milo-2, I am glad that I have made your acquaintance. In my opinion, you have the mentality, attention to detail and desire and would love to shoot with you. Next summer, if you can set time aside, would you come and shoot with us at the MSC?
Everything starts with the basics. Run the yard/meter lines and acquire your DOPE, (data on previous engagement), making your data card. OR, purchase X-Ring from Empyreal Sciences. IT IS THE ONLY/ONLY BALLISTIC SOFTWARE THAT REALLY WORKS. No/No Truing, No Fudging, No BS.
If there is one thing I have learned shooting steel, misses are not always where they seem, esp in dry conditions. Breeze moves dust signature quickly, and in all directions up front. Wet ground perfect, lol. Hang a bigger plate 4 ft either side and get your bearing.
I'm a aim small, miss small guy too, but there a times it does not pay or make one better.
12" plate at 1450 is .8 moa, tough coldbore shot, hard in general.
All of these guys hit cold bore. Target was at 1,200 meters
Well there is no argument from here that having good data is important. But there are various ways of obtaining it also.
Assuming you always hunt the same location or locations, there isn’t really a better way than shooting at various targets like say rocks and making a chart using that data. That’s not to say that a colder temp might cause some minor changes.
But wind is by far the biggest factor, and the further the target and stronger the wind the more critical it is.
Seeing hits by the shooter is very important, or by a spotter if the shooter didn’t see it.
The second shot should be a hit, or at least much closer if you know how to use the dial.
If it takes more than 3, it’s probably caused by rapidly shifting strong wind. In which case you would be better off to just quit shooting since you are having trouble getting 2 shots to land in the same place,
The fact is that the extremely long locations get hunted very little, and there is a very good reasons for that.
Good guns and good shooters aren’t necessarily a part of it.
Sorry, I was explaining to Don that bigger steel hanging the at the same height as his intended target does not lie. He said he struggles with hits. Dust and fly dirt present things in your scope that need one keen eye to decipher.
I have shot in such fierce tail winds, that dust is moving so fast it is hard to pick up. You can be hitting low the whole time and get calls of right-left-even high, but is all you see is the dust crawling over the berm behind the target.
I know the pic you posted serves as an advertisement, but from an outsider looking in, with the bigger dotted plate to left, and most likely 6 guys lined up prone all firing, it could be construed as one wind bitch and 5 capitalizing on that first shot, just saying.
Yeah but... After zeroing at home, (Top of the Rockies in Colorado), then traveling to New Mexico, my Zero was at least 1/2" off.
Those guys were Awesome. We had so much fun and they totally excelled. IF I remember correctly, there was a 5/6 mph wind at the muzzle from 4 O'clock, and another wind at 800 meters (from the Shooter) moving at 7 mph from 9 O'clock and then one more that switched back and forth L - R at 7mph. It wasn't a big deal. The Larger target was from the day before. That KDR is 1,700 meters long and even though paper doesn't lie, the 1 meter tall target is mandatory at the longer distances. That KDR is at an altitude of 9,400' ASL. I have another one at 8,100' ASL that is 4K long. And then of course, shooting down the canyon is even further. O Top of the mountain, you line of sight distances to the horizon. It's a Fantastic place to shoot.