Winchester bore and cast bullets leading

Tac-O

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So I've been working on getting my lever gun to shoot cast bullets without leading it. I've had a couple of really experienced guys helping me try to figure it out and they're now scratching their heads and one thinks that it is the bore's slight chatter marks causing it and that I should send it to Winchester for a new barrel.

Anyway, loads have been good for the hardness of the bullets I've tried and the fit of the bullet has also been good.

I thought I'd put a few pictures here to see what you guys think about the bore. This is a new Winchester 45-90 1886 deluxe. I've out around 100 cast bullets through it. Based on these pictures, what do you all think?

See if Winchester will replace the barrel?
Lap it myself?
These chatter marks aren't bad enough to cause leading?

Some of these pictures are from the middle of the bore and some are from the chamber leade transition and some are the lands. You'll have to look closely to distinguish the areas.
 

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Tac-O

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Tac-O

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From what I've seen of pictures of Browning/Winchester bores, this seems pretty typical to me.

A deluxe gun that is $1700 MSRP, I would think would have a better bore, but they make no such claims about bore lapping on the website.
 

Dean2

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First off: What is the Brinel hardness of your cast bulltes. Under 25, you are limited to 1200 fps without a gas check. 25 Brinel you should be good to 1500. What is the bullet diameter, and what is the barrel diameter. Are there any tight spots when you slug the barrel. Does the barrel lead if you use gas checks? What kind of lube are you using and how many lube rings, no lube everything will lead, what weight bullets and style. All of these factors have an effect. Lead bullets are going to leave some lead behind, the question is how much.

If you look at the older barrels, that one is actually remarkably smooth in comparison. You can however get it lapped or lap it yourself if it really bugs you. What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards.
 

Tac-O

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Lap the bore, easy, and generally effective! I hand lap every rifle we purchase (except match barrels) and some handguns! memtb

I've been thinking about using your method you sent me ;) except it would be JB's because I have no auto polish like you're using.

I read somewhere that JB's is about 1200 grit and breaks down to around 2000. That's pretty fine! It would take lots and lots of strokes.
 

Tac-O

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First off: What is the Brinel hardness of your cast bulltes. Under 25, you are limited to 1200 fps without a gas check. 25 Brinel you should be good to 1500. What is the bullet diameter, and what is the barrel diameter. Are there any tight spots when you slug the barrel. Does the barrel lead if you use gas checks? What kind of lube are you using and how many lube rings, no lube everything will lead, what weight bullets and style. All of these factors have an effect. Lead bullets are going to leave some lead behind, the question is how much.

If you look at the older barrels, that one is actually remarkably smooth in comparison. You can however get it lapped or lap it yourself if it really bugs you. What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards.

Well, everything I've read in books and from other lead shooters is very contrary to under 25bhn being limited to 1200fps.

Bore groove to groove at muzzle is 0.4565-0.457. Pushing a slug all the way through the bore from chamber yields the same measurements. I did this with a soft-ish lead bullet that was 0.460, probably around 9-12 bhn.

All my brass was virign Jameson 45-90 brass, FL sized without expander than expanded with Lyman M, which measures 0.456 and flares mouth to 0.460. I use the Lee factory crimp die at medium crimp.

I was using MBC buffalo#1, which is supposedly about 18bhn, 0.459, lubed with modified emmerts, with a duplex of 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2f OE. About an inch accuracy at 50 yards. 20 rounds shot. Leading mostly in last 3-4" of muzzle, but not a ton. A bit in other spots, but very minor. Single cereal box was 0.025" thick, compressed ballpark 0.25".

The tested some Lyman 457193 that a forum member sent me. 0.460, spg lubed. Probably 9-12 bhn. Same load as above, 20 rounds, 4-6" accuracy at 50yds, leading spread throughout whole length, a lot but not a ton.

Then took the Lyman bullet and changed the load to 4gr 4227 and 68gr 2f, used a single 0.025" hdpe milk jug wad, compressed ballpark 0.25". About 1.5-2" accuracy at 50yds. Leading throughout barrel, maybe a little less than previous Lyman bullet load but probably very similar.
 

Dean2

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Well, everything I've read in books and from other lead shooters is very contrary to under 25bhn being limited to 1200fps.

Bore groove to groove at muzzle is 0.4565-0.457. Pushing a slug all the way through the bore from chamber yields the same measurements. I did this with a soft-ish lead bullet that was 0.460, probably around 9-12 bhn.

All my brass was virign Jameson 45-90 brass, FL sized without expander than expanded with Lyman M, which measures 0.456 and flares mouth to 0.460. I use the Lee factory crimp die at medium crimp.

I was using MBC buffalo#1, which is supposedly about 18bhn, 0.459, lubed with modified emmerts, with a duplex of 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2f OE. About an inch accuracy at 50 yards. 20 rounds shot. Leading mostly in last 3-4" of muzzle, but not a ton. A bit in other spots, but very minor. Single cereal box was 0.025" thick, compressed ballpark 0.25".

The tested some Lyman 457193 that a forum member sent me. 0.460, spg lubed. Probably 9-12 bhn. Same load as above, 20 rounds, 4-6" accuracy at 50yds, leading spread throughout whole length, a lot but not a ton.

Then took the Lyman bullet and changed the load to 4gr 4227 and 68gr 2f, used a single 0.025" hdpe milk jug wad, compressed ballpark 0.25". About 1.5-2" accuracy at 50yds. Leading throughout barrel, maybe a little less than previous Lyman bullet load but probably very similar.
What you read and have been told is clearly being contradicted by your results. The 18 bhn is barely leaving any lead. There is a big difference between 18 and 12, the scale is not linear. The softer bullets are stripping enough lead to really open your groups and lead the bore. I shoot 25 bhn at 1400 to 1800 fps into less than an inch at 100 with nearly zero leading. True in 45-70, 38-55, 458 win, 460 bee, 375 H&H, 308 Win etc.

You dont have to believe me but if you stick to the 18 or find some 25 I think you will be very happy. Those with a quality soft wax lube will give you great groups. One more tip, fast way to de-lead a bore, fire a couple of jacketed bullets down it.
 

Tac-O

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What you read and have been told is clearly being contradicted by your results. The 18 bhn is barely leaving any lead. There is a big difference between 18 and 12, the scale is not linear. The softer bullets are stripping enough lead to really open your groups and lead the bore. I shoot 25 bhn at 1400 to 1800 fps into less than an inch at 100 with nearly zero leading. True in 45-70, 38-55, 458 win, 460 bee, 375 H&H, 308 Win etc.

You dont have to believe me but if you stick to the 18 or find some 25 I think you will be very happy. Those with a quality soft wax lube will give you great groups. One more tip, fast way to de-lead a bore, fire a couple of jacketed bullets down it.

Well how do you hunt heavy game like elk with such a fragile bullet as a 25bhn one?

I've read about the shooting jacketed after cast to remove the lead ... But I'm not sure I want to do that.
 

Dean2

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Well how do you hunt heavy game like elk with such a fragile bullet as a 25bhn one?

I've read about the shooting jacketed after cast to remove the lead ... But I'm not sure I want to do that.
What have you been reading. 25 bhn bullets are not fragile, brittle or anything else. Shoot one against a steel plate then through s stump. The bullet will stay completely intact. Since u have some 18s try them first. I have shot moose, elk deer and literally more bear than I can count with them. Never recovered a 45 or 375 cal no matter what angle. All passed through in one piece. Have recovered 38 and 30, all still in one piece.
 

wv270wsm

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I too have shot cast bullets from my 44’s . I’m casting my own and getting 25 bhn some just a touch harder. They are anything but fragile. I’m putting gas checks on them and pushing them just about as hard as I dare to . 1450 fps from a revolver is a pretty good hand full. I’ve shot countless black bears with them from every angle it will penetrate.
 
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Leading is caused by powder gases blowing past the bullet and melting it.

In that rifle with BP you could shoot pure lead with a touch of tin IF the bullet is the correct size.

Too small and too hard is a receipe for leading.

Slug the bore, go at least +3 thou, use SPG, lube with pure lead w/just enough tin added to cast well.

Getting a 45-90 to shoot well with cast is easy compared to a 270 WCF !
 

Dean2

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Leading is caused by powder gases blowing past the bullet and melting it.

In that rifle with BP you could shoot pure lead with a touch of tin IF the bullet is the correct size.

Too small and too hard is a receipe for leading.

Slug the bore, go at least +3 thou, use SPG, lube with pure lead w/just enough tin added to cast well.

Getting a 45-90 to shoot well with cast is easy compared to a 270 WCF !
Where in the hell do you guys come up with this stuff. A bullet is in the rifle bore for less than 2 thousands of a second. Even with the heat of a nuclear blast you couldn't melt lead that fast. Leading is caused by soft lead being stripped off the bullet and the faster you push it the worse the leading.

I posted an article below that does a very good job of explaining leading and the causes and types of it.
 
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Tac-O

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Does increased antimony content in lead alloys not make them more brittle and more likely to fracture?

This is stated in I think both Lyman and Lee handloading manuals. The Lee manual talks about how it is pressure, not speed, that limits how much you can push a certain alloy hardness.

It is mentioned in numerous places in manuals and by cast bullet manufacturers that 22bhn and higher bullets usually are just for target.
 

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