Where to get rifle building knowledge?

[Savage 12BVSS]

I would suggest you build your own savage rifle, nothing wrong with being an assembler level gun lover, a barrel vise and barrel nut wrench are not much. You can learn to headspace and install your own barrels, even have a couple and switch barrel's. Trigger assembly is nothing to install and adjust. Stocks are available and you can get a glass bedding kit and bed and float your own barrels. A go no go guage set will keep you safe headspacing. No gunsmithing required just put your own custom parts together and assemble, you like finding the parts and putting it together is better than someone else. The savage bolts come apart and are easy to change bolt handles on, the floating lugs don't need to be lapped usually and a local smith can true the action for you. Northern Shooters Supply has a lot of the pieces mentioned and take-off barrels, machined recoil lug's, machined barrel nut's, and trigger's as well. All I use from a stock savage is the action. If you don't like savages maybe the AR15 idea is better. Dave

 

[J E Custom]

JE custom, I was hoping you would see this and reply. I've seen allot of your comments and posts and enjoyed what you have to say. I understand assembling parts does not make you a smith, a lathe is not feasible at this time but that may change in the future. I was just trying to start somewhere and I thought assembling pre fit parts was a good place. Thank you for your input. Just for future reference what type, size, brand, etc. of a lathe would be good to start with?

Sorry, Just the hard truth about getting into gunsmithing. I started cleaning and improving the accuracy of friends hunting rifles. It was Ok and taught me many things about what it takes to make an accurate rifle. But I wanted to learn how to actually build one and for that I had to get a lathe. I started with a small hobby lathe and soon learned that it created more work but it also taught me how to set up for different operations.

Soon I bough a used Lathe that I thought would do what I wanted but found it to inaccurate for precision work. So inter phase 3 and a better lathe. I found one that I could afford and that had most of the features I though I would need. I think you can never be happy with any lathe unless you spend 10,000 + dollars, so I would recommend a gear head lathe with at least a 12" swing and a 40"bed between centers. Spindle size is the one thing that will put you in the expensive lathe ranges but consider a 1. 1/2 '' spindle the minimum. these can be bought for 6 to 8,000 dollars.

If it is not in the cards for a full on assault of Gunsmithing work, the assembly of some types of firearms requires special tools but would be a good place to start as suggested. Even then having someone check your work would be a good idea. because mistakes in firearms are not very forgiving.

I don't want to discourage anyone from going down this road, just wanted to prepare anyone for the many years of learning required and the attitude to never stop learning and listening to other gunsmiths. (Not internet experts).

If you enjoy doing it, proceed.

J E CUSTOM

 

[shortgrass]

Lots of ways to go in gunsmithing. Assembling doesn't require a lathe or mill. The Savage / Remage and other 'drop ons' are there. metal finishing can and does require some specialized tools. There is such a thing as "synthetic blanks" that need to be finished, bedded, painted, recoil pads installed. Most of those 'good' synthetic blanks will cost what a finished H-S Precision does or more. Those require hand work. If you can change a tire, if you can change the oil in your pick-up, if you can put new plug wires on, go for it.

 

[QQQQQ]

I share your dream Quade, unfortunately like you it's not in the cards for me to go through formal schooling or buy expensive machinery at this time. I've built many AR's from stripped receivers and enjoy doing that very much, but I'm honest enough to understand that puts me nowhere near the realm of a gunsmith, as stated above it just means I can assemble parts.

Now that we've established that I'm an "assembler" level gun enthusiast, I still think you can really enjoy putting your own rifle together and I'm in the process of doing that with my first bolt action gun right now. Just received my action and trigger, next part will be an XLR chassis here in another month or 2, then a proof barrel that I will send off to a smith for finishing. I'll assemble it all when ready and imagine I'll enjoy the process as much as I enjoy "building" AR's and someday, maybe, I can start to dabble in true gunsmithing.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not interested in ARs, at this time, I like bolt guns. This gives me hope. Assembling pre fit pieces and parts is where I would like to start. You give me hope!

 

[brguide]

I started just assembling guns with prefits. I did a total of about 12 and the whole time i did it i was researching lathes to buy. I wanted a lathe so bad. Well everything you need to know about ASSEMBLY level can be found on You tube. Make sure you hear the same answer from muliple videos instead of just taking a guys word for it. I was able to save enough to get a hobby lathe from Precision Matthews PM12x36. Since then i have almost upgraded EVERYTHING on the lathe 4500 lathe now is a 9000 lathe. Is it worth it ya with some extent but would have been better to just get a 10000 lathe to start with. Believe me when i say the MACHINES are the cheap part. The tooling will set you back big time. Are my builds i do for myself better than a prefit (heck ya) but would have been 10x cheaper to stay with the prefits.


Do what you can learn as much as you can from you tube, books, mentors, online classes, ect. There is a wealth of info out there. I am self taught. Lots of people are very crafty and some just are not. Once you start putting them together i could not stop. Thats when i bought my lathe then a year later my mill. I am not in business and just do it for the fun HOBBY part. Be VERY aware if you are to work on someone ELSES gun they better be present and take the gun with them OR you need a FFL. Every state is a little different. If they leave the gun with you and they leave you are breaking the law without an FFL.

 

[jarnold37]

Looking for help/knowledge/advice from all you intelligent gun Smith's out there. So backstory first, about 4 years ago I got parts and pieces together for my first semi-custom rifle build. I had a blast researching and finding parts for my build and then took everything to the smith. I was so excited to get it back but it was actually anti climatic. Don't get me wrong I love the gun but my favorite time was researching and finding parts. Skip to today, I'm dying to do it again. But I would love to be able to do it all myself and have been looking into pre fit barrels and what not so a mill is not needed.

So my question is where does a guy learn this knowledge of rifle building? Unfortunately I cannot go to a gunsmith school to support my hobby, so is this something I can learn from somewhere? Or am I just stuck wishing and wanting? Is there any online training available?

Thanks for any help or advice

My interest started with a desire to make a 700 deer rifle shoot a tighter group. After having it glass bedded, then came a new hand lapped barrel. A local gunsmith who was very aged (and contankerous) let me watch him chamber my barrel. He told me I could watch but keep my mouth shut, and I learned a little by watching and had a hundred questions but couldn't say a word. But the bug had bitten. This was before the internet and I only had books to attempt to learn. Did not know anything about machining but I bought a new $1900 chineese lathe anyways. Then came tooling, which soon added up to more than the cost of the lathe. My lathe chattered when I chambered and the spindle seized after a few hours, and machinist or not, I had learned enough that you get what you pay for and so I purchased a $12000 lathe. Much better. Now, a person has many internet videos that will show almost everything you need to know. Beware however, if the bug bites you, it is a very potent allure. It seems to be unending the tooling and equipment wanted and needed. But, it is very enjoyable to order a quality barrel and chamber and fit yourself in your basement or garage. But if friends want to watch, better tell them to keep their mouth shut. lol

 

[Mram10us]

If you study and

My interest started with a desire to make a 700 deer rifle shoot a tighter group. After having it glass bedded, then came a new hand lapped barrel. A local gunsmith who was very aged (and contankerous) let me watch him chamber my barrel. He told me I could watch but keep my mouth shut, and I learned a little by watching and had a hundred questions but couldn't say a word. But the bug had bitten. This was before the internet and I only had books to attempt to learn. Did not know anything about machining but I bought a new $1900 chineese lathe anyways. Then came tooling, which soon added up to more than the cost of the lathe. My lathe chattered when I chambered and the spindle seized after a few hours, and machinist or not, I had learned enough that you get what you pay for and so I purchased a $12000 lathe. Much better. Now, a person has many internet videos that will show almost everything you need to know. Beware however, if the bug bites you, it is a very potent allure. It seems to be unending the tooling and equipment wanted and needed. But, it is very enjoyable to order a quality barrel and chamber and fit yourself in your basement or garage. But if friends want to watch, better tell them to keep their mouth shut. lol

You had the same gunsmith I did

 

[SteelBanger]

This thread alone is making the bug bite in deeper, fortunately I do not have the funds to give in to its allure otherwise I'd probably end up in divorce court!

 

[nksmfamjp]

I probably only qualify as an internet expert!

FWIW, you can learn some key points of gunsmithing in a community college lathe class. I'll bet a tuition paying student could do some extra credit barrel chambering, if the student bought reamer and reamer holder, etc.

That kind of training would teach you to setup a lathe operation. Milling could be learned in other classes.

You also more importantly need to learn how guns work. This can be done trial and error, but you cannot sell errors and shouldn't do trials on customer guns.

So, you need money...Have you considered getting your FFL and running a transfer business. Then add scope mounting, cleaning, sighting in, load testing, load development....Someday you will be holding lathe money and be ready to jump in!

Good Luck.

 

[ndking1126]

these can be bought for 6 to 8,000 dollars.

J E, after spending that much money upfront, what expenses are after that? Maintenance? Replacing bits/blades? Does the lathe last 10 years? 50?

 

[jrock]

I understand what you are saying when you said, "it was anti-climatic." That is the way I felt when I got my first custom gun put together that took me 5 years to gather parts and equipment to build. Just wanted to dive in and build another.

My thought on equipment generally echos the posts so far except that it will probably be 2 decades before I can swap out my lathe for a $10k one.

As far as learning, information is everywhere. Buy books, dvds and spend countless hours online. I have cataloged a full 3 ring binder of gunsmithing articles and forum discussions with information you will not find in any published book. Machining is the other half of the research equation. Read everything you can find on sites like Practical Machinist for example. I have found very few smiths willing to divulge detailed information.

 

[Mram10us]

Don't feel like you need a ton of money. I bought an Eisen (same as PM) for $4k new. Bought about $1k in tooling, much of which was HSS that just sits since I like inserts better for 99% of what I do(another story). Definitely could have saved there. Lots of good deals for used tool holders on ebay. Chinese cheapo inserts and tool holders actually work well for the size of stuff we do. You can spend $5k on a build pretty quick ...
Takes a long time to be a great all around gunsmith, BUT it doesnt take long to specialize with rem 700s or another brand. Took me about 2 months with my new lathe before I chambered my first carbon barrel. Still have the rifle and it shoots great.

 

[brguide]

J E, after spending that much money upfront, what expenses are after that? Maintenance? Replacing bits/blades? Does the lathe last 10 years? 50?

I will tell you JE is much bigger than use hobbyist but i can somewhat tell you how long stuff will last, The PM 12x36 my motor i replaced with a baldor (350.00-150.00 got a discount because it was under warranty still), Tool post Dorian (450.00), Barrel through coolant i built myself for Viper oil 450.00, the machine has held up quite well but the better machines you buy the less repairs you will need. Under warranty everything is free just tell them what you want. Thats why i went with PM best warranty in the industry. Maintenance you need to change oils in lathe. Oil ways every time you use it and are done with it. More oil on ways the better. years it will last? No clue but have had mine for almost 3 years and still going good.

Tooling is a new animal. I see tooling and just want to buy everything. Best tools for slow speed i think are the Arthur R Warner T15 steel inserts and tooling. WORTH every penny because i can resharpen. Easily have spent about 800.00 just on them. Then comes the gun tooling you need that will add up really fast. Just expect to spend thousands a year on everything you need. It hard to list because its soo long, add a mill into the mix and it now doubled. Most last as long as you keep them clean and cutting tools at correct speeds and feeds. If not it only takes minutes to ruin them. I researched for about 5 years before i bought anything i needed to start buying but start with the machine first. I was scared to use my machine because i had 0 experience. Now i have built 7 guns and tons of fun little things like muzzle brakes, bushings, tooling, ect it is endless what you can make. Worth every penny if you are really into it and have the savings to blow for a hobbyist.

 

[jarnold37]

I will tell you JE is much bigger than use hobbyist but i can somewhat tell you how long stuff will last, The PM 12x36 my motor i replaced with a baldor (350.00-150.00 got a discount because it was under warranty still), Tool post Dorian (450.00), Barrel through coolant i built myself for Viper oil 450.00, the machine has held up quite well but the better machines you buy the less repairs you will need. Under warranty everything is free just tell them what you want. Thats why i went with PM best warranty in the industry. Maintenance you need to change oils in lathe. Oil ways every time you use it and are done with it. More oil on ways the better. years it will last? No clue but have had mine for almost 3 years and still going good.

Tooling is a new animal. I see tooling and just want to buy everything. Best tools for slow speed i think are the Arthur R Warner T15 steel inserts and tooling. WORTH every penny because i can resharpen. Easily have spent about 800.00 just on them. Then comes the gun tooling you need that will add up really fast. Just expect to spend thousands a year on everything you need. It hard to list because its soo long, add a mill into the mix and it now doubled. Most last as long as you keep them clean and cutting tools at correct speeds and feeds. If not it only takes minutes to ruin them. I researched for about 5 years before i bought anything i needed to start buying but start with the machine first. I was scared to use my machine because i had 0 experience. Now i have built 7 guns and tons of fun little things like muzzle brakes, bushings, tooling, ect it is endless what you can make. Worth every penny if you are really into it and have the savings to blow for a hobbyist.

How true. Aloris bxa tool holders at about $80 a piece. I have about 15 and woud like about 10 more. Then the holders (Iscar) that hold the actual insert that clamp in the tool holder. I have about 20 @ upwards of $100 apiece. And yes I bought large amount of the Arthur Warner HSS holders and inserts. And not to forget measuring tools. Starrett dial indicators, several types of micrometers, test indicators and holders. Also how about a Set-True 6 jaw chuck can spend $2000 on one. Floating reamer holder. Reamers and gauges and indicating rods. Then a through the headstock coolant setup. Two Starrett machinist levels and even digital readout added later. And the list goes on and on.