Where did I go wrong

[ken snyder]

I see this type of results a lot with a team effort. It's a lack of familiarity between spot and shot. A personal language on both sides. He was calling level and you were shooting Vertical. Both were probably over all correct. One good way to demonstrate and learn a common language is to practice with each other on a small target that is on the ground and on a slope going down hill from you. A small difference can show up as feet or even yards from the target when looking for the impact, as where when shooting standard targets that present a flat surface that is facing you the difference will show up as inches. The difference between the two perspectives is amazing. I feel confidant that if the two of you took some time out and went long range varmint shooting that within a couple of weekends the two of you will be in very good sync with each other. Something else that might help would be to call radians that are observable instead of abstract moa or just call actual distances instead of clickity click.

 

[BillR]

Yes I will remember this one forever. I'm not much for having heads mounted on my walls, matter of fact I have none. I have take a large number of Whitetail bucks as big but never had an opportunity to hunt Mule deer. My goal when I started was not so much to take a big buck but to take one at 1000 yds. After this hunt I see I need better equipment in some area's. But all that said, I am very proud of this deer and it will be the one deer I have on the wall. It will probably be in a European mount though. Just something to put up in my gun room to look at and remember once in a while.

Its a good possibility your correct Ken. My shooting partner was not there that day and the one I was shooting with I had only shot a couple times with but he was the one I was able to hunt with that day. I called his shots on two deer and he was able to connect on his first shot on one at 800 and on his second deer he didn't listen and missed his first shot and then settled down and drilled it on his second at 550. He is just getting into long range shooting and still trying to wrap his mind around it. So am I

 

[Buffalobob]

I'm learning something new that I have always wanted to try and love it. Now if you have a problem with it I suggest that you find another forum to do your posting on rather than doing it in Long Range Hunting.

Well said!

 

[SBruce]

Hello Bill,

I just ran some of your numbers through the Exbal program, and thought I'd pass this on.

It's saying that a moving target of 2mph requires a 4 moa lead at 800 yds. If the buck was quartering up at lets say a 45 degree angle, I'd guess that it would still require a 2moa lead and a 2moa holdover.?

Possible that there were some vertical winds too that day? Like down drafts between you and deer?

This is only an educated guess, but I am thinking that there was a combination of things happening to you, and the full extent of those things may never be known and may not even be repeatable if you went back to the same spot and re-did it tomorrow.?

In one of Shawn Carlocks' videos there is a segment of "when things go wrong" it shows a similar missing situation at a buck deer. He attributed it to unseen and unknown winds in the steep canyon country.

Nice buck though, and congratulations on getting it done even after the misses. I like the character and the kickers.

 

[4xforfun]

I gotta love this web site.....I have been using various editions of the Sierra program for years.....I saw you said you used zero degrees, and I though you were talkin temperature!!!!!! I figured you were lost in space. I didn't have a clue that you can plug in up/down angle. Sheeezzz......you would have though a numbers nerd like me woulda/coulda/ shoulda figured that one out about a hundred years ago. It was right there in front of me all along!! lightbulb Now I have a WHOLE NEW SET OF PERAMETERS THAT CAN PLAY WITH NOW. Maybe now I can be at least slightly educated about the whole up hill, down hill thing.

I am soooooo excited. I learned something today...on a hump day, no less!

 

[WildRose]

I misread your initial post when I replied the other night and got some things twisted around.

I Read "Five inches low" not 5 feet HA!.

There are still just a heck of a lot of variables here which can cause such a low miss but... .

Are you sure you dialed up the proper MOA?

It is highly possible as someone else suggested that you got an errant range reading or possibly even misread it.

Since you were consistently low, it's less likely to be mechanical error.

The variation in altitutde, temp, humidity is just not enough to affect the bullet that much, but depending on what powder you were using if it was dramatically colder that could certainly affect your drop.

Also I said something backwards, that's what I get for reading and typing when I'm half awake.

Greater humidity will not reduce velocity, it has the opposite effect until you get to the point of actual precip.

 

[BillR]

Now you all know why I beat my head against the wall on this one. I and my regular shooting partner practiced at different ranges all summer till this should of been a chip shot. I almost quit shooting after the first shot due to the amount of error I spotted. It worked on the other range I was shooting at. I raised my head and double checked the drops thinking Old man did you screw up. Nope drops are correct. Spotter called the same amount of drop addition again thinking I hadn't dialed up even though he watched me. Kind of spooked him a bit thinking he was wrong also. When I dialed up the second time and shot we were both scratching our heads and butts. Especially when it appeared to hit about the same amount low. It took long enough for the bullet to get there that I was back on the gun again and spotted my own shot that time and then I knew what to do and dialed up and hit it.
At this point I'm finding too many variables I might not have right that can only be corrected buy more practice. Hate to say this but I shot that gun so much this summer that the barrel probably will not last till next season. So I'm going to quit beating my head against the wall for now and just be happy with my buck and go on. But I will bet you I have it figured out by next year. I still want that 1000 yd deer.

 

[paphil]

Cosine of angle
5 deg - .4 /100 .996
10 deg - 1.5/ 100 .985
15 deg - 3.5/ 100 .966
20 deg - 6 / 100 .940
25 deg - 9.5/ 100 .906
30 deg -13.5/100 .866
35 deg -18 / 100 .819
40 deg -23.5/100 .766
45 deg -29.5/100 .707
50 deg -35.5/100 .643
55 deg -42.5/100 .574
60 deg - 50 / 100 .500

From this cosine chart, practicing your shots and collecting data at a 10 degree and shooting at a 20 degree angle would result in shooting high. The difference between the two is about 4.5 yards per 100 yards or 36 yards at 800. That is only a little over 1MOA on my charts. The wind from 7:00 has to be a big part of the problem and I would guess you are shooting Reloader powder! Having and correcting errors are what make this game fun. At least you corrected and made the shot. Too many people would have blamed shooter error and would have kept trying without correcting. You had the tools you needed and due to lots of practice you knew what to do to correct and made a great shot on a great buck!

 

[BillR]

I was using Nosler Custom Brass, 142 Grain SMK, 68 grains of Retumbo with Winchester Magnum primers. I'm on my 5th loading with 100 rounds of this brass and does not seem to be any signs of pressure.
Chrony Chronograph with printer showed an average velocity of 3170 with an ES of 15 if I remember right.
Rifle was a Rem 700 Sendero II in .264WM that was box stock and had been broken in with the shoot one and clean method for 50 rounds and then just shoot the hell out of it.

Optics was a Leupold MK 4 TMR reticule 6.5X20X50 30MM tube mounted on Leupold one piece base and rings.

All this and using a Harris S type bi-pod.

1600 Leica LRF.

Sierra 6 ballistic program.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I would guess that your range estimation was off for that large of a difference .

Also, think about getting a Leupold Mk IV spotting scope with the TMR reticle. It would exactly match your scope, provide consistent spotter and shooter information, and probably be easier for newer shooting partners to "get it".

Congratulations!

 

[bigngreen]

So far every time I've ran into this it has been range error on my part. Every time it has been an animal getting ranged and I'm on it waiting till it turns and it's moving away much more than I thought and I run it right under them or at their feet. After every miss I've re shot the shot at a target or rock at the spot the animal was at and ranging back to where I shot from, every time I'm dead nuts on given the correct data.
In field ballistics programs and some device for current environmental data help eliminate a lot of, "what just happened."

Nice buck and great story!

 

[Buffalobob]

All this and using a Harris S type bi-pod.

One of the things I ran into last year was that I had to place the bipod on a slanted sidehill angle and then loosen the podlock and level the rifle and lock the podlock again and in the end I really torqued the feet following the animals as they moved and I waited for a still shot. All of this stressed and torqued the fore end of the rifle until it caused serious issues with point of impact. Whether I caused barrel contact with the fore end channel or just affected the recoil movement I do not know. Anyway it is something to check when you get around to it.

 

[straightshooter]

This long range shooting stuff is just getting to complicate for me. Seriously, I was on site this morning, considering writing a post, why I feel every beginner should start out with a 308 winchester. The main reason, would have been for the ability to practice, practice, practice. In some hunting camps, there would be guys judging you for taking such a shot, and to be totally honest, I use to be one of those guys. Even though things didn't work out as planned, I do not fault you at all, because you practiced and practiced for that shot.

I've had things go horrible at less than a hundred yards. That experience was on my first big game animal (a small Mulley buck). I was with my grandfather, my mentor into hunting and shooting. He had four girls. I was the first boy born into the family, so he and I had a very special relationship. I got into a position were I took a standing shot, in very cold winter conditions, and pulled the shot 2', hitting the deer just in front of the rear quarters. To make the story short, I did harvest that deer, but the whole experience brought me to tears. That experience made me overly critical of other hunters who didn't seem to respect the game that they shot at.

It's a long story how I became a long range hunter. One that if I told, others on this sight might looked down on me. But I can honestly say, that the only reason I can be an advocate of the sport, is the morality of this sight. The senior members in my opinion, are not trying to advance the popularity of this sport at all cost. They only try to educate all about what long range hunting is. They do so with knowledge, experience, and respect even when they are attacked in return.

There are people and groups just waiting for any reason to condemn this sport. So at times as hunters, we can't tell that story about how things went badly. BillR I want to thank you for sharing this, I commend you for doing so, and for taking the effort to figure out what happened with that shot. VERY MORRAL AND RESPONSIBLE OF YOU!!! I have learned more lately from others sharing about the misses. The main thing I have learned is the vast majority of hunters are caring responsible individuals.

 

[ken snyder]

BillR don't bother beating your head on the wall because it doesn't improve LR shooting, If it did then I would be the worlds absolute finest shot, instead I have the worlds largest headache! We tend to get caught up in what we read, way too many folks talking about the best that has ever happened and not too many talking about the reality of what just happened! Cold shot is like 139 times harder that target shooting. The barrel thing is different for me though, I absolutely love it when someone toasts their barrel in 3 months time, it gives me something to do Ya know!