Whats the longest shot you would take on a brown bear
- Thread starter bigrich954rr
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Momentum, not energy.
Momentum is mass times velocity not velocity squared. Energy is mass times velocity squared and predicts that you can kill a large Boone and Crocket Tyrannasaurus Rex with a 17 Rem if you just get enough velocity on that 25 gr bullet and it just ain't so. Big Mo is what makes a bullet go through bones, not energy.
Thus Momentum gives more emphasis on bullet weight and less on velocity than energy measures do.
If you shoot a varmint bullet it will disintergrate and you no longer got mass so you no longer got momentum - result is no penetration.
Full metal jacket bullets do not loose any momentum by expanding and will break bones and just keep on giving. Hard cast lead bullets are designed to do the same, as are "solids".
The classic Nosler partition is the politician of the group-the front half of a Nosler expands and loses some momentum and then the back half acts like a full metal jacket and keeps on going.
Roll Tide
Momentum is mass times velocity not velocity squared. Energy is mass times velocity squared and predicts that you can kill a large Boone and Crocket Tyrannasaurus Rex with a 17 Rem if you just get enough velocity on that 25 gr bullet and it just ain't so. Big Mo is what makes a bullet go through bones, not energy.
Thus Momentum gives more emphasis on bullet weight and less on velocity than energy measures do.
If you shoot a varmint bullet it will disintergrate and you no longer got mass so you no longer got momentum - result is no penetration.
Full metal jacket bullets do not loose any momentum by expanding and will break bones and just keep on giving. Hard cast lead bullets are designed to do the same, as are "solids".
The classic Nosler partition is the politician of the group-the front half of a Nosler expands and loses some momentum and then the back half acts like a full metal jacket and keeps on going.
Roll Tide
sniper2
Well-Known Member
What units do you use to guage momentum???Bullet design will take care of penetration and if a large slow bullet will penetrate (.416 )a slightly smaller .338 with more velocity and with less resistance by virtue of diameter being smaller will surley penetrate more!I'm not talking about 17 or 22 cal bullets that tend to explode but rather partitions or as you mentioned solids.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Sniper 2
This is what I believe about bullets. I have believed other things in the past but this seems to fit with my experiences. You do not have to believe what I belieive, I just lay it out there and I may be wrong agian. It would not be the first time I was wrong.
A 300 grain bullet traveling at 2000 fps would have the same momentum as a 200 grain bullet traveling at 3000 fps. Now then, if they were solid steel and there was no mashing or distorting of the bullet, then penetration would be about equal.
Here are the momentums for two older styles cartridges from Weatherby
340 Wby w 250gr @ 3000fps= 750000
vs
375 Wby w 300gr @ 2800fps = 840000
The bigger bullet even though slower has 12% more momentum. Your point I believe is that at some point a faster lighter bullet is better than a heavier slower bullet is correct and that is when you get to an old slow 45-70 vs a smaller diameter that is faster and has a bullet to constructed to withstand heavy imnpact on bones. There are some details in here that go back to my joke about the T rex and 17 rem. Even with a solid steel bullet the 17 just aint going to cut the mustard.
We then come to the frontal area of the bullet and the diameter of the hole. Bigger holes kill better obviously but how do we take that into consideration. The Taylor knockout power is one attempt that seems to me to be as good as any. What he did was take momentum and multiply it by the diameter of the hole.
You can go look at it here
http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/bulletenergy.html
If you want to play around with some momentum vs energy and fast light bullet vs slow heavy bullet this JBM ballistic calculator will compute both energy and momentum.
JBM
Now then you will notice that my calculations above and the first web site and the second website all have very different numerical values for momentum. This is because momentum is a dimensionless value. Lots of people talk about pound sec etc but it is not correct. It has no units. Consequently, if you divide my numbers by 7000 you will get to one website and then divide the numbers on that website by 32.2 and you will get the second website. (I think- I haven't run the conversions for about a month now so I might not remember all of the correct numbers.)
In bullet momentum just try to recognize that different people convert grains of weight to pounds of weight and then some of us will convert weight to mass. Up above, I did no conversions because we are just comparing two bullets.
There are people who swear by hydrostatic shock but I am not one of them. I swear by breaking bones and penetrating.
This is what I believe about bullets. I have believed other things in the past but this seems to fit with my experiences. You do not have to believe what I belieive, I just lay it out there and I may be wrong agian. It would not be the first time I was wrong.
A 300 grain bullet traveling at 2000 fps would have the same momentum as a 200 grain bullet traveling at 3000 fps. Now then, if they were solid steel and there was no mashing or distorting of the bullet, then penetration would be about equal.
Here are the momentums for two older styles cartridges from Weatherby
340 Wby w 250gr @ 3000fps= 750000
vs
375 Wby w 300gr @ 2800fps = 840000
The bigger bullet even though slower has 12% more momentum. Your point I believe is that at some point a faster lighter bullet is better than a heavier slower bullet is correct and that is when you get to an old slow 45-70 vs a smaller diameter that is faster and has a bullet to constructed to withstand heavy imnpact on bones. There are some details in here that go back to my joke about the T rex and 17 rem. Even with a solid steel bullet the 17 just aint going to cut the mustard.
We then come to the frontal area of the bullet and the diameter of the hole. Bigger holes kill better obviously but how do we take that into consideration. The Taylor knockout power is one attempt that seems to me to be as good as any. What he did was take momentum and multiply it by the diameter of the hole.
You can go look at it here
http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/bulletenergy.html
If you want to play around with some momentum vs energy and fast light bullet vs slow heavy bullet this JBM ballistic calculator will compute both energy and momentum.
JBM
Now then you will notice that my calculations above and the first web site and the second website all have very different numerical values for momentum. This is because momentum is a dimensionless value. Lots of people talk about pound sec etc but it is not correct. It has no units. Consequently, if you divide my numbers by 7000 you will get to one website and then divide the numbers on that website by 32.2 and you will get the second website. (I think- I haven't run the conversions for about a month now so I might not remember all of the correct numbers.)
In bullet momentum just try to recognize that different people convert grains of weight to pounds of weight and then some of us will convert weight to mass. Up above, I did no conversions because we are just comparing two bullets.
There are people who swear by hydrostatic shock but I am not one of them. I swear by breaking bones and penetrating.
Useing a 338 with a 250 grain partion @ 2800 fps on Moose and a 475 revolver with 420 grain flat point hard cast @ 1350 fps there is a more visable bullet impact with the 475 and a bigger hole as well as more penetration. Energy of the 338 is 4347 fpe,the energy of the 475 is 1697 fpe. Foot pounds of energy is very misleading in terms of wounding ability of LARGE game.
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Now I am not trying to start a fight but I find this hard to believe.
I know there is going to be a very large thud when this flat point bullet hits but I do not think it is going to do more damage or penetrate deeper.
I know there is going to be a very large thud when this flat point bullet hits but I do not think it is going to do more damage or penetrate deeper.
Troy
Well-Known Member
I admire you gents that have been charged by bears and have lived to tell about it. Call me a wimp or really smart but I prefer to hunt things that will not kill me if I mess something up.
Interesting, to say the least.
Interesting, to say the least.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
The bears aint got no AK 47's, aint got no hand grenades, ain't got no RPGs. They don't launch no 82s nor 122s at you. Never hear of no 105 buried with trip wires on the trail.
Don't seem hardly worth working up a sweat over.
Certainly not anything I would call "fair" chase. If you should run into some bears that are equally well armed then you just drop me an email. Be happy to help you out.
Don't seem hardly worth working up a sweat over.
Certainly not anything I would call "fair" chase. If you should run into some bears that are equally well armed then you just drop me an email. Be happy to help you out.
sniper2
Well-Known Member
Try a solid bullet next time in the .338 and shoot into ballistics gelatin and tell me what happens!
sniper2
Well-Known Member
My point is that two bullets of the same weight and structural integrity with the slightly smaller bullet having a significant advantage in velocity will not be inferior to the bullet of larger diameter in causing trauma,tissue damage or breaking bones or penetration,that is all I'm saying.The difference in diameter I refer to is .078" and not 0.24....
Palix-Dog
Well-Known Member
So if you were going to hunt Sitka Blacktail on Kodiak Island what caliber would you choose? Considering the bears think the sound of a shot is the dinner bell.
codyadams
Well-Known Member
Your going to have a hard time getting a response from him, considering the guy hasn't been on the forum in 12 years, and the last response on this thread was 18 years ago......ha ha.
W
Wyo37
Guest
Necro post
Old thread but short answer is you won't ever go wrong with 375h&h but there are many many other cals that are as good or slightly worse or way better. 375 most people shoot very well yet it has good stopping power.
