What Is ELR?

[DocUSMCRetired]

We are looking for community feedback on this question. We believe that ELR (fired from a standard velocity for that caliber, example 2900 FPS for a 6.5) to be shooting through Transonic into Subsonic. However there have been different answers to this question as more people chime in. I am looking to get community feedback as to what users feel is ELR. For us, ELR being in the transonic/subsonic zone fired at a standard recognized velocity for that caliber means that no matter what caliber you are shooting at, you must shoot in to conditions which prove the bullet (transonic zone) and prove your ability to call distance and wind. This provides you with a caliber/cartridge specific definition that challenges the shooter across the board. Let us know what you think, by answering this simple question here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/XHD29HR

Please keep in mind, users should not be looking for the "easy button" or something everyone can do. ELR should be a true test of shooter/rifle skill and ability. It should be something that is a serious challenge that limits the playing field.

Thank you for your time.

 

[THEIS]

Hello Doc,

This question seems to come up about every 2.5 years.

My "short" version opinion is ELR should be a set distance so that ELR is a constant value and not a variable value that slides from left to right based on what caliber a shooter is using.

My "longer" version opinion is this:
I am not a fan of basing ELR off TS/SS distances based off a cartridge MV scale because that puts way way too many variables into the equation.
TS/SS at my shooting location can be different that TS/SS at your shooting location even though we have same cartridge.
Basing ELR of TS/SS distances confuses the ELR realm even more than it already is
Having TS/SS as the deciding factor puts a 300BO shooter discussing ELR realm when we all know the 300BO is not "really" ELR system.

Way back in the day when the ELR phrase was coined it was common practice/principle that 2000yd was considered ELR. But you have to remember that was back when the ELR community in regards to commercial entities was probably about 16 people. **** even 10 years after the 408CT went public there were many in the industry that said the 338LM was NOT capable of 2707yd after the release of Craig Harrisons shots. Now fast forward to today and we have people doing 3700yd with 338LM and 338NM.

So in summary....The "old" ELR of 2000yd needs to be revised to better match the vast improvements in case design, bullet design and shooter discipline. 2 years after the ELR phrase was coined there actually was another phrase coined to coincide with the 375CT capable distances...It was ULR (Ultra Long Range). So maybe industry should set ELR as 2000m-3000m and bring back ULR and have it be 3001m+
Instead of having TS/SS be the sliding scale deciding ELR by cartridge; we slide the distances seen as ELR and ULR to match industry and shooter improvements.

THEIS

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Hello Doc,

This question seems to come up about every 2.5 years.

My "short" version opinion is ELR should be a set distance so that ELR is a constant value and not a variable value that slides from left to right based on what caliber a shooter is using.

My "longer" version opinion is this:
I am not a fan of basing ELR off TS/SS distances based off a cartridge MV scale because that puts way way too many variables into the equation.
TS/SS at my shooting location can be different that TS/SS at your shooting location even though we have same cartridge.
Basing ELR of TS/SS distances confuses the ELR realm even more than it already is
Having TS/SS as the deciding factor puts a 300BO shooter discussing ELR realm when we all know the 300BO is not "really" ELR system.

Seriously, try to get them to agree on exactly what distance is ELR and you will get 100 different answers. I know I did...

Way back in the day when the ELR phrase was coined it was common practice/principle that 2000yd was considered ELR. But you have to remember that was back when the ELR community in regards to commercial entities was probably about 16 people. **** even 10 years after the 408CT went public there were many in the industry that said the 338LM was NOT capable of 2707yd after the release of Craig Harrisons shots. Now fast forward to today and we have people doing 3700yd with 338LM and 338NM.

So in summary....The "old" ELR of 2000yd needs to be revised to better match the vast improvements in case design, bullet design and shooter discipline. 2 years after the ELR phrase was coined there actually was another phrase coined to coincide with the 375CT capable distances...It was ULR (Ultra Long Range). So maybe industry should set ELR as 2000m-3000m and bring back ULR and have it be 3001m+
Instead of having TS/SS be the sliding scale deciding ELR by cartridge; we slide the distances seen as ELR and ULR to match industry and shooter improvements.

THEIS

The reason Ts/ss is such a great number is because you want to include all shooters. They shouldn't need to go drop 20K on a system just to participate. With the Ts/ss rule anyone can take any rifle in their safe, and have an opportunity to give a real go. This doesn't limit it to those that are wealthy, or have the budget for an impractical toy (I mean really who carries around a 150lb rifle).

The other issue with giving it a "distance" is that so many people provide so many distance answers that coming to an agreement would be near impossible. Seriously, if you saw the responses, some of them over complicate it to the point its insane. By using the Ts/ss rule its very simple. Either you proofed your skill level and the bullet through one of the toughest zone for a bullet to work, or you didn't.

This is my opinion on the matter. Ts/ss designation allows for flexibility, allows for everyone to participate, and allows for that zone to move based on technology. If cartridges in 2 years are pushing limits that today was not easy with reliability, that barrier transitions with technology.

 

[Broz]

One set distance fits all. ELR is a matter of distance, not what you are shooting rifle wise.

Jeff

 

[HARPERC]

Do the limits change with animate vs non animate targets?

I'm also curious if you folks are talking group or single hits?

Not that those thresholds apply to me, just conversation from the shallow end of the pool.

 

[Broz]

3 consecutive hits, including a cold bore

 

[Deleted member 46119]

This is such a complicated question.

I answered distance in the poll.

To me, "Long Range" is when turret twisting is required but is within the reach of "normal" turret range. As in say a 20MOA rail and turrets to the top.

To me, "Extreme Long Range" has multiple aspects. Beyond reach of "normal" turret range, requiring extreme offset scope mounting like 40, 60MOA or more to gain elevation adjustment in the turret and perhaps using more hold over. Add to that the Trans-Sonic to Sub-Sonic factor and wind over +1000 yard distances.

But then.

is +300 yards with a 22LR "Extreme Long Range" for the 22LR?

I saw a 6.5CM make a hit at 2080yards. By my book that is extreme. For my 338 Edge or the 338 SnipeTac there that day is it? 2080 was in the TS/SS range so is that "extreme"?

I'm a baby at the actual shooting beyond 1000.

 

[FearNoWind]

ELR cannot be specified as a static distance. It is, by the very definition of "effective', relative to every influence on a projectile.
ELR is the greatest range at which the projectile can most fully perform the task for which it was launched, regardless of target specificity.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

gun)Pew............ding. Pew.........................ding.

ELR cannot be specified as a static distance. It is, by the very definition of "effective', relative to every influence on a projectile.
ELR is the greatest range at which the projectile can most fully perform the task for which it was launched, regardless of target specificity.

 

[nmbarta]

I think the rules for the forum are perfect.

It seems to me that once you have become effective at 1000+ plus, you have the trigger time, reloading, and shooting abilities to make a decent attempt at much farther targets.

Breaking through the transonic stage has little to do with anything to me, this is has more to do with a bullets ability to break through it than a shooters capability.

When any one factor can result in a miss, (temp, barometric pressure, wind (not just left or right, but elevation as well) spin drift, humidity, sd's, coriolis,etc) your shooting at an extreme range. In my opinion, this starts to take place at 1000 yards regardless of what your shooting. Some cartridges will be affected much sooner, but pretty much all will be affected at 1000.

I may be mistaken, but I thought the E stood for extreme, not effective. I have two rifles that are very capable and weigh in at 18 and 24 lbs. With NF and USO scopes, brass, bullets, dies, and powder, I'm into each for about 4500.00. I bought both of them off of this site, and I hunt with both. (338 lapua, pierce action, 29" broughton barrel, xlr chassis, and 375 cheytac lawton action, lawton barrel, mcree chassis) No need to spend 20k or pack a 150 lb rifle.

Go-karts don't race with NASCARs. Nothing wrong with racing go-karts, I have quite a few of those as well.

 

[Greyfox]

Given the NRA has already established a "mid range" limit at 600 yards and "long range" as 1000 yards, why not keep things simple and follow this theme....i.e., define ELR as +1000 yards, or a specific distance beyond that? Transonic effects, when relevant, has to be factored in just like any of the other factors/conditions when trying achieve accuracy at distance. Why complicate the definition. Just some thoughts.

 

[FEENIX]

I think the rules for the forum are perfect.

I agree, keep it simple, to need to complicate. gun)

 

[Broz]

Another thing to consider when thinking along the lines of the TS/SS definition is, there are rifles out there that can be carried to a line, shot and hit a target at 2 miles and still do not go trans-sonic for another 400+ yards. So would we want to consider a hit on a target at 2 miles as something that does not qualify for an ELR shot?

Jeff

 

[FEENIX]

I agree, keep it simple, to need to complicate. gun)

JEEZ ... "no need to complicate it" that is.