What is a good group? Really???

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by *WyoWhisper*, Feb 23, 2004.

  1. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    I figured somone would bring that up.. that's why stated both rifles.. just saying I realize there is a differnce as to NOT start a pissing contest... I still remain stubbor to my aguement though..ok, now that we are all over that...
    3 shot groups.. yeah, I figured someone would bring that up too. If I have to I'll shoot 5 shots Or 10 if that's what it takes... 1 shot could be lucky, 2 shots maybe luck but not as much.. if you can do it a 3rd time.. I feel there has to be something valid about it... until someone can shoot a smaller 3 shot group from a hunting/tactical rifle or even match this group then they really can't say to much as to the 3 shot theory. In a tactical/hunting rifle the first shot is the most important as you eluded to that fact as well.

    I also realized this is very subjective but I was looking for some reference point. Maybe a stardard of sorts..
    ie: Stock Rifles, semi-customs, full customs...

    I am just trying to see what the opinion is of a good groups other than 100 yards...
     
  2. CAM

    CAM Well-Known Member

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    WyoWhisper
    I know what your saying I just don't know the answer. I'm like you and hunt not bench rest, I have a custom "HUNTING" gun and also like to try and shot groups for comparisons.

    Just a little friendly harassment glad you have a good sense of humor, especially sence I have a custom hunting gun also and would like to think the money was well spent and I didn't get second hand work because it was for hunting [​IMG]

    CAM
     
  3. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    I understand the subjectiveness, and where you're coming from, and it's probably more valuable as to progress than what is "good" IMHO.

    I don't think what is good is subjective at all though, it's pretty well a fact what is good at 1000 BR, and BR... no subjectivity about it, you're either competitive or you are not. I really don't think from that perspective we are in disagreement either??

    A gun that shoots in the 2's, maybe low 3's would be great "to me". When mine shoots in the 2's and 3's I'm happy, 4's is ok but lacking something. Very leathal, but still lacking from where I could be. That's three shots at 300yds, and shot more times than 5 groups to really verify it, and never exceeding those numbers, NOT AN AVERAGE group size. I don't do averages on groups, I need to have a guarantee on what to count on, and if it's .4 or .5 or .7, that's what it is. Change something to lower it, or account for it.

    I would expect more from a BR rig beacuase it uses a heavier barrel that should put 5 or more in the same group, the same size because it's more temp stable, and no other reason. It's my opinion, that with three shots from each, you should not be able to tell the difference between a heavy gun, and a tactical/custom hunting rig.

    .6 - .7 MOA for a standard factory stick is good, and in my book, isn't worth any more foolin around with to get better. Big 30 cal's that is. .4 - .5 for the smaller stuff and I'm done and happy.

    my 2

    [ 02-23-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
     
  4. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    Yeah, I have a pretty good sense of humor.. just ask Dave King and his wife .. they are the most annoying people but after they said they wanted to pay me to visit Cody and Yellowstone they became the most generous, gracious and intelligent people on the planet. [​IMG] [​IMG] ... you out there Dave?

    Here are the groups I shot yesterday at 550 yards. To me they are good, but are they good in the relms of this LR game we play?
    They are more of a testiment to the quality craftsmanship built in the rifles than they are to my shooting ability...

    A5 300 WSM, 175 gr SMK at 3115 fps
    [​IMG]

    A5 308, 175 SMK at 2725 fps
    [​IMG]

    A5 308, 175 SMK at 2725 fps 2nd group fired 5 min. after the one above.
    [​IMG]

    [ 02-23-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]
     
  5. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    If it wouldn't "highjack" this thread too badly, Id like to see "how far from point of aim" brought into this discussion.
     
  6. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    Len,

    Very good question and it was where I was going to go with it eventually...

    on the first target I was aiming at the blue diamond at the bottom you see there.. not sure which shot number hit the diamond... I'd say I was about 1.5" on average of my POA.

    for the other tagets: first one (top ) I was 4" to the left of POA I missread the wind obviously.
    The second ( bottom ) I was 1" right and 3" high.
    In my mind that is acceptable for hunting. But I would like honest opinions if that is acceptable for others...

    To be quite honest I am preping myself for sniper competitions and want a comparison as to what is needed to be accurately competitive.
     
  7. baldeagle713

    baldeagle713 Well-Known Member

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    *WyoWhisper*
    [​IMG] Nice shootin!! Sorry I didn't get down to the Sports mans show in Harisburg Pa. Gun poor at the moment. Maybe next year. [​IMG]
     
  8. Jake in NC

    Jake in NC Well-Known Member

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    Hey Ric.. It ain't a solid answer, really, btu when I want a little perspective put into what I'm doing I read some of 'ol Don Lewis' writings.. He had a unique way of telling ya that it doesn't have to shoot to BR standards to be fun.. I've become more interested in how far from my point of aim my hit was than how close together they hit.. For my purposes that first shot is what counts.. I still like nice tight little round groups but I ain't gonna get my undies inna wad over it..
    .. The targets you show look like dead varmints, to me.. Enjoy.! [​IMG] d:^) JiNC

    PS- Are ya settin' up to go shootin' with "James in TN".?? Hehehe..
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Nice shooting Ric. Was that from a bench or bipod? The best I've ever shot from a bipod was 3 shots into 3" at 600yds with my 300 RUM LR hunting rifle and I was elated with that. In excellent conditons and from a bench I've shot some 3 shot groups at 1000yds in the 4" range with it. In my book your groups are awesome.
    Wayne
     
  10. Crazycooydog

    Crazycooydog Active Member

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    These groups are from a factory Rem synthetic heavy barrle varmint 26" 22-250 with hand loads 50 v-max 38gr Re15 fed welfare primers at 3825fps. It was shot at 600 yards with a 7mph 1/4ing wind. It mesures 2 3/8" out side to out side.
    [​IMG]

    The hits where 2"left and 3/4" high from poa,miss read the wind a bit.

    [ 02-23-2004: Message edited by: Crazycooydog ]
     
  11. HoytemanPA

    HoytemanPA Well-Known Member

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    This was the last group I shot at 820 with my factory 30-378 Accumark just before hunting season. I have since pulled the stock off and sold it to Texas Dave and am still in the process of putting a MBR on it. As far as from point of aim, I shot at an identical archery target to the left of this one. The group therefore started 20" to the right of aim point.

    This was with those good old 200 grain Accubonds and 106 grains of Retumbo. You reckon that bottom one would be up with the other two if it didn't have that awful 3/8" of freebore and that terrible belt?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    I think we all know that a good group at 100 yards is .5 or less but what is a good group at a little distance? Would it be safe to say that MOA is a good group? or Better to say .5 MOA
    1 MOA 1" at 100, 2" at 200, 3" at 300 etc
    and .5 MOA
    .5" at 100. 1" at 200, 1.5" at 300...

    I shot a group ( 3 shots ) at 550 yards yesterday and I was wondering what is expected group wise to have a great shooting rifle? After we get some input I'll post the pic of the group...

    I think we know the 1K BR guys are shooting 6-10" groups.. thats great but that is from a "competion rifle" what would be expected from their hunting rifle?

    Awaiting thoughts...
     
  13. 7ultra

    7ultra Well-Known Member

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    WyoWhisper,
    Personally, for my hunting rifle (Ruger M77 7mm Rem) I'm happy with anything under 1" MOA. Sometimes she suprises me with .5 or less, but with strictly hunting ammo, an inch will do just fine. Heck, with my surplus guns(fickle iron sights/tired eyes), I'm confident stepping into the woods after holding a 3" group. In the end, it really comes down to how far I expect to shoot my gun. No shots will be taken with the war rifles beyond a Hundred.
    Hope this helps
    7ultra
     
  14. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    I like .5moa from my varmint/tactical guns, --the smaller , the better. I like to see 1" at 300yds ideally, but 1.5" is good too.

    For the BR gun, i'd like to see 3/4 at 300 and 2" or better at 600.

    JB