What Gun & Scope would you get?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Dobermann, May 8, 2004.

  1. Dobermann

    Dobermann Member

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    May 8, 2004
    Hi There,

    I have been recently introduced to hunting and am hoping to purchase a rifle and scope in the next few weeks. I will be hunting deer and foxes in Scotland so the legal maximum size of the rifle would be a 7mm or 270. I have found gun shops here tend to recommend what they have for sale and not always what is best for me.
    I do appreciate that I will be only shooting foxes and deer here in Scotland (I wish to make clean kills so I hope most of my shots will be at 200/300 yards max). But I would like to be able to shoot 600 metres plus to be able to shoot to and beyond my abilities hence the aforementioned requirements for targets over 600m. I have spent the last few months reading what people who sell guns say so this is my chance to find out the truth from people who shot. I have now fixed my budget at around $8,000 as scopes are a lot more expensive than I first though. Thank you again and a special thanks to the webmaster for this great site.

    Safe hunting.

    Dob
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If you have $8000 for the rifle and scope you have more than enough...

    sounds like you need a custom 243, 243AI or a 6mmRem or a 6mmREM AI, you could go to a 6.5-284 to shoot lighter bullets (95, 107 and 120's)

    as far as the best... wow loaded questions
     
  3. trader388

    trader388 Well-Known Member

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    Feb 12, 2004
    Do you hand load? If you do, then you have a wide selection.

    Personally I like the 7mm bullets because they have a wide range of selection 100gr. - 180gr. and at the high end you can get some of the highest BCs.

    So you have your choices of 7mm. These 3 are the ones I like.
    In the 7mm Rem Mag and Ultra Mag I like the Remington Sendero SF
    In the 7mm WSM I like Winchester Model 70, Coyote Stainless.

    All I hear are very accurate.
     
  4. GEG

    GEG Well-Known Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Hello, first off, can a scoped rifle combo be sent to you or a dealer there in Scotland?
    If so, you need to email me about a combo that would be perfect for you. If not, buy
    a 7mm Remington Maguum in any Remington
    700 model that can be gotten in your
    country. I would think factory ammo for
    this caliber should be available any where in the world. Leupold scopes should be
    easy to come by there also. Do not use some
    cheap rings and bases either. Leupold has
    some that will work for you. Get a 50mm
    objective scope as I seem to remember that you all used to be able to hunt at night.
    Good luck on your purchase. GEG
     
  5. Brown Dog

    Brown Dog Writers Guild

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    Sep 26, 2003
    Dob,

    $8000 puts you in PRS custom rifle territory. They're in your neck of the woods. I would chat to them before you make your call.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Dobermann,

    I have an acquaintance that lives in Scotland but works offshore on oil rigs. He also culls when back in Scotland. Contact me offsite via e-mail and I'll attempt to help put the two of you together.

    Crispin2 at cableone dot net

    Remove all of the spaces and use a 'period' for the word dot, use the @.
     
  7. 700

    700 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 30, 2002
    Dob

    Wow, $8,000 is a lot of kudos.

    Before looking abroad, you should see what rifle builders are available at home.

    Accuracy International
    P.O. Box 81
    Portsmouth
    Hampshire
    PO3 5SJ
    Tel: +44 (0)2392 671225

    Email: precision@accint.org


    spring to mind, and I believe http://www.armalon.com/.

    Aficionado who is from the UK and has posted in the Optics section might be able to help you out with the names of the companies.
    http://www.border-barrels.com/ in Newcastleton make high quality barrels and may be able to point you in the right direction regarding UK rifle manufactures.

    I do not know what the laws are in Scotland but be careful about caliber selection. The police might not allow you to hunt fox on a certain piece of land because your calibre is too large. I believe 6mm/243 inch is usually accepted as a suitable fox cartridge by English police.

    Chambering a non standard cartridge may make purchasing ammo expensive and will hugely reduce resale value.

    If you wish to use a range finding reticle and you think in meters go for a scope with miliradian adjustments. This will save you doing countless fuzzy calculations going MOA to miliradians.

    Perhaps consider the humble 6.5x55. This is an excellent cartridge for British Isles deer, and lapua are doing some very good highvelocity loads which would be good fox or fox/deer combo loads. This is also a popular "buy anywhere" cartridge with great long range targeting properties..

    A few more comments. Consider some of the high quality "off the shelf" heavy barrel rifles. Especially as you are new to the sport.

    All imports from the US will be subject to 17% duty and what ever vat is charged in the uk. Also hassle of paperwork and perhaps cost of import export firearms agent.

    Rgds

    700
     
  8. 700

    700 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 30, 2002
  9. stewh

    stewh Member

    Messages:
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    May 31, 2001
    Dob,
    There is no restriction on the calibre of rifle you can own in Scotland, PROVIDING you can show a good reason for requiring it. For hunting Deer, there are many calibres you can choose from. If you were shooting mostly Reds then a 308W or 270W would be very suitable. If only Roe, then a 22 Centre fire such as a 223, 22-250, or 222 would be fine. If you will be shooting both then a 243W would be a good all-rounder.
    I own rifles in 280 Rem. (which is almost identical to the 270W apart from the bullet being 7mm), 243W, 22-250Rem. & .22LR.
    With the budget you have available you could buy 2 fine rifle combos & I would suggest the following:-
    A full bore for Red Deer in one of the following calibres: - 308W, 280 Rem., 270W, 7X57, 6.5-55. All fine calibres.
    A 22 Centre fire for Roe & Foxes e.g. 22-250 Rem., 223, .222, 22 BR, 22 PPC.
    I wouldn't advise you to buy a custom rifle just now. There are many fine factory rifles available which will be more accurate than you are at this stage. Take a look at Tikka, Sako, Winchester, or Remington. A Sako 75 would be a particularly good choice & later on when you've killed so many Deer & Foxes that the barrel is shot out you can send it to Callum Ferguson in Tomintoul to have a Border barrel screwed on & a little fine-tuning.
    Regarding scopes, buy the best you can afford. In the UK you can buy a Smitt & Bender or Swarovski for a little more than a Leupold & believe me they are far superior to a Leupold.
    I wish I had your dilemma, mate. If I was starting out again then I would make less mistakes this time round.
    Send me an E-mail at stewh@btinternetDOTcom if you want to discuss it further.

    All the best Stewart in Scotland
     
  10. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Jul 27, 2001
    Wow, big bucks. I would suggest a short action bolt gun in a 6.5 cal. My favorites are 260Rem and 6.5X55. Will do anything you want out to 600yds plus. Match bullets should be readily available and reloading costs not extreme.

    I am stunned that you would need to spend that much. Why not get someone to mail you just about everything except the receiver? I am sure you have no laws against importing scopes, stocks, rings/bases, that sort of stuff. The receiver would be whatever is available locally from Tikka/Sako, Rem, Savage, Winchester, Beretta, or even Mauser - Parker Hale.

    I am stunned that you would need to spend that much over there. I thought Canada was expensive.

    Let me know if I can help... jerryteo@yahoo.com

    Jerry
     
  11. nowler

    nowler Well-Known Member

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    Mar 26, 2004
    doberman

    i have to agree with most of the last 2 posts. i live in scotland and hunt with a .222, .25-06, 6mmPPC, all of which are sako's and .308W from accuracy international. i'd go for a sako or a tikka or a ruger, depending upon what you fancy.

    where abouts are you and what kind of deer is it you have to hunt? this would seriously dictate the choice of caliber in my opinion.

    if you are planning on going over 300m, then you are looking for a caliber with high ballistic coefficients. i'd opt for one of the 6.5's if this is the case.

    as for scopes..... swarovski are not all they are cracked up to be. i have just sold one and replaced it with another leupold long range tactical, which is every bit as good as the swarovski. it depends on your preference though and what you are using them for.

    you might wish to portion some of your budget to buying some reloading gear, as this will improve your accuracy no end.

    my advice would be listen to as much advice as you can and decide what will work for you.

    if you need some advice, feel free to email me nowler@hotmail.com

    derek
     
  12. 1894

    1894 Well-Known Member

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    Jan 8, 2004
    IMHO long range is best moved to (if at all, I'm not convinced which probably puts me in a minority of one here) from a firm bedrock of normal range hunting.

    Therefore I would suggest a good quality standard rifle to start. When you have cut your teeth on this you will better understand your needs and can have someone like Callum Ferguson or Trevor Proctor build exactly what you want.

    I would suggest a sako 75 stainless synthetic in 243 if roe and fox are the prime targets or 25-06 if reds are much on the agenda. I love 6.5x55 but the number of sub 140gr loads can be counted on the ring finger of my right hand and finding it in Scotland likely pretty hard. I do not think it is advisable to mix starting handloading with starting hunting. If fox were not on the agenda you could stretch that to 308 or 30-06

    A fixed 6x42 scope will let you concentrate on hunting and minimise fiddling. If I can shoot rabbits at 250m with one and hunter bench rest types aggregate around 0.3moa to be competitive (so I'm told) then you and I can shoot deer a lot further. Add in a decent pair of binos and a spotting scope and you have spent:-

    Rifle £870
    Mounts £90 (estimate)
    Scope £450 (Swaro. The S&B and Zeiss have too thick reticles and the leupold is poorer at dusk)
    Binos £850 Swaro ELs
    Spotting Scope £500 Swaro CTC 30x70 draw scope

    These are all heavily discounted prices and still come to a total of £2,760. To that add a rifle slip, sling, ammunition, range fees, FAC variation, BASC/BDS membership (for the insurance)bipod (if you must)etc and you'll be over £3k in a jiffy.

    Buying stock rifles and high quality glass and hunting with them is not sexy - however I guarentee that if you use this equipment well you will do better than with a magnum custom rifle and no decent glass.

    Good luck.
     
  13. Pete Lincoln

    Pete Lincoln Well-Known Member

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    658
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    Mar 17, 2004
    Buy once, buy right.
    you need a scope with adjustable turrets and a paralax adjustment, with a reticle thin enough to allow you to shoot tight groups but thick enough so you don't loose it in the shadows,
    I would suggest either a S&B PMII 3-12x50 or 4-16x50 with a mildot or klein reticle( avoid the horus and byrant, they are too cluttered) or a Nightforce NXS 5-22x50 with 1/10 miliradian clicks. Or the Zeiss/Hensold 6-20x50 tactical. You will cover every type of hunting and most target shooting applications with one of thoise 3 scopes. I'd err on the side of the S&B if you are hunting more than shooting paper and the NXS if targets are your main quarry.
    You need a dependable mounting system, by far the most sturdy and uncomplicated is a picatinny rail and matching rings. I would opt for badger Ordnance in every case, there are cheaper alternatives on the market but badger are by far the best quality.
    You need to consider stock shape, will you be using it mostly prone? or standing sitting, I would opt of a general purpose style, The Mcmillan M40, HS precision's standard pattern or the Hogue overmoulded are all good choices for a hunting rifle.
    Consider rifle weight, i can tell you from experience that you do not want a big fat varmint type barrel if you are hunting anything steep or stalking any woodland, i'd opt for a heavey sporter of light varmint contour if you want a slightly heavier barrel, stick with standard hunting profiles if you don't want a heavey. People say that heavey barrels are more accurate,,thats pure bull. light barrels are just as accurate,, but the heavies stay accurate over longer shot strings. (when will you ever fire more then 3 to 5 rounds when hunting?)
    define your use for the rifle, is it possible to have an alround rifle from Foxes to Reds? beware the man with only one rifle, he likely knows how to use it.. but in what kind of area are you foxing? up in the hills yopu can happily shoot foxes with anything, but in more populated areas the Police may wish you to have a smaller caliber.
    what i would do is have 2 rifles. I'd have a 22.250 for fox and short range roe. Then i'd have another rifle for longer range roe up to reds. caliber choice,, well you are spoiled for choice.. get something that will do what you require and not do it marginaly, a 243 is marginal. A 6.5x55 is a good starting point, and basicaly anything in between up top 300 win mag is still on the right track. Think availability of hunting loads, a 308 and 30-06 has probably the largest choice of factory ammo in all sorts of bullet types and weights, yiou wouldn't go wrong with either. A 270, a 25-06, 280 will all do the job well. I like the 6.5x284, but there are only a couple of factory loadings.
    If you have the money to spend i would definately go for a custom rifle. Options available would be an RPA(british!! ), a Nessika bay(from Callum) a sako remington or winchester that is customised.
    Personaly, if i had $8000 to spend i would be talking to Jackson rifles about an RPA with a Border Barrels Barrel on it, mated to either a McMillan or HS stock. In the caliber of your choice for larger deer. I would also buy a factory 22.250 probably a remington and i would have border barrels re barrel it, after i'd shot it quite a bit at fox, crow and rabbits.
    The world is your oyster..
    Buy once Buy right..
    Pete