Well finally did it...sold all my reloading stuff !! Anyone else shooting factory ?

[J E Custom]

Sometimes 1/2 moa is good enough. If I can't find a gun that shoots factory ammo into 1/2 moa, I kick it down the road. A gun is a tool to me. If it isn't working like I need it to, I am done with it. Its less time and money for me to flip a rifle and buy new one, than spend hours at the reloading bench trying to find "the one". Also, there are a lot more 1moa and 2 moa shooters out there than 1/2 moa shooters who are thrilled with a gun that puts three into 3/4 or 1 moa. Although, my last two rifles, a bergara premier approach in 6mm CM and my Christensen BA tactical in 6.5 prc seem to like everything so far. Its not worth my time to keep picky guns in my safe. Both shoot 1/2 moa.

I am just in a different phase of my life than some of you. There is no need to make this personal. Reality is there has never been an easier time to pick up a factory rifle with factory ammo and got shoot 1/2 moa groups. Those who believe otherwise are stuck in the past. Reload if you want to reload. I don't care how anybody spends their time. For me, life is a little hectic right now, so I am grateful for all the high quality factory ammo.

Sorry, nothing personal just opinions on this site.

We like to debate the pros and cons of many subjects and rarely are we all in agreement but we like to hear others opinions and reason for their opinions.

So don't take it personal, just state your opinion and don't take it personal if someone disagrees.


J E CUSTOM

 

[Don A Parsons]

Ill probably do the same thing when my time comes...

Age,,, the time,,, the limited hunts,,, plinking once in a while with the rimfire ...

I see a day when my reloading days come to an end... Ha...

I just don't know when it will happen

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

For me it will happen when I keep falling out of my reloading chair or maybe when I can't pull the press handle down anymore. Nah!! ........when I can't reload anymore it will be cause I can't shoot anymore.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

Sometimes 1/2 moa is good enough. If I can't find a gun that shoots factory ammo into 1/2 moa, I kick it down the road. A gun is a tool to me. If it isn't working like I need it to, I am done with it. Its less time and money for me to flip a rifle and buy new one, than spend hours at the reloading bench trying to find "the one". Also, there are a lot more 1moa and 2 moa shooters out there than 1/2 moa shooters who are thrilled with a gun that puts three into 3/4 or 1 moa. Although, my last two rifles, a bergara premier approach in 6mm CM and my Christensen BA tactical in 6.5 prc seem to like everything so far. Its not worth my time to keep picky guns in my safe. Both shoot 1/2 moa.

I am just in a different phase of my life than some of you. There is no need to make this personal. Reality is there has never been an easier time to pick up a factory rifle with factory ammo and got shoot 1/2 moa groups. Those who believe otherwise are stuck in the past. Reload if you want to reload. I don't care how anybody spends their time. For me, life is a little hectic right now, so I am grateful for all the high quality factory ammo.

As with you, guns are tools to me. I'm not particularly concerned about how they look but any rifle that doesn't shoot goes down the road.

A couple of my rifles have long, heavy barrels, making them more suited to bench shooting than carrying around the mountains hunting elk. For them I want as much accuracy as I can get. For the hunters, 1MOA is good enough for the bolt guns and 1-1/2 MOA for the levers. All of my rifles will do that, most much better.

I haven't found it necessary to spend "hours at the reloading bench" trying to find accurate loads. Typical load development for me is to build two sets of work-up loads for each bullet/powder combination. There are typically 5-6 loads in each set with 0.5g increments in the powder charge between adjacent loads in a set. I may do 1 or two identical sets per bullet/powder combination. Each load gets chronographed for velocity and the POI is recorded. If I find tight groups with 3 powder charges, I pick a middle value for subsequent testing. That middle value usually becomes my standard load.

That method is quick, easy and cheap. The first time to the range with my 6.5CM and handloads I took 5 bullet/powder combinations. Four had 5 rounds per set, one had six, giving 10 or 12 loads per combination. That was 52 loaded rounds total and I didn't need to fire them all to get what I wanted - the remaining loads came home and were disassembled to save the components. The results were four sub .4MOA loads and another that was .8MOA. Three loads used hunting bullets (129g ABLR, 130g Scirocco II and 143g ELD-X) and one used a match bullet (140g ELD-M).

How many trips to the range would it take to find five sub MOA loads? I tried 7-8 different types of factory ammo in a .30-06 Dad gave me. Really wanted to keep that rifle but after Dad passed it went down the road - It wouldn't do better than 1-1/2MOA at best and I already had three .30-06 rifles and all shoot MOA or better with my handloads.

Like you, I don't care how others spend their time. Some people like to chase white balls around in the grass. That's fine by me as it keeps them off my shooting range.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I'm a factory ammo shooter. I've thought long and hard about reloading but with the quality of off the shelf ammo these days, not to mention the costs of buying everything needed to start reloading. I simply can't justify it. Premium ammo can usually outshoot my abilities anyway.

premium ammo not tuned to a rifle can shoot like garbage. If your rifle likes a particular ammo then great but unless you are shooting very high end rifles...you could end up spending a few hundred quickly trying to find a factory load a rifle likes, and then if that factory changes lots you could see it open up. I had a browning xbolt that would shoot a particular lot of high end ammo into .5 inch groups. I ran out of that ammo so went a purchased some more boxes. The new boxes shot about 1.25 inches. Still acceptable to many people for their hunting but for mine, not acceptable knowing that my rifle could do .5inches. just my two cents on that. A good press, a good set of dies, a good scale, a powder throw, brass trimmer, tumbler and trickler can be had for under 500$ especially if you find used. You will make that money back very fast, unless you did what I do and buy more reloading stuff because you get addicted lol. Then it is more of a wash haha.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

In an earlier post, I listed the cost of my reloads vs current factory offerings. I am relisting them here for purposes of illustration (read so I don't have to keep going back to the other post).

Hornady 140g ELD-M
$8.02 = reload
$26.39 = Hornady Match

Hornady 143g ELD-X
$11.65 = reload
$28.99 = Hornady Precision Hunter

Nosler 129g AB Long Range
$13.69 = reload w/ H100V
$14.20 = reload w/ StaBall
$58.99 = Nosler Trophy Grade 129g AB Long Range
$43.99 = Nosler Trophy Grade 142g AB Long Range
$46.99 = Federal Premium 130g Terminal Ascent (Out of stock)

Swift 130g Scirocco II
$16.25 = reload
$41.99 = Norma 130g Swift Scirocco II
$41.99 = Federal Premium 130g Scirocco II (Coming soon)

Barnes 127g LRX
$19.40 = reload
$36.99 = Barnes VOR-TX 127g LRX

The comparisons seem fairly straight forward, but that is somewhat deceiving. The factory ammo costs do not include time and costs required to acquire the factory ammo or the fact that factory ammo is purchased with post-tax dollars. The money saved by reloading is the equivalent of pre-tax dollars and it is something that can be done at the reloader's convenience.

The following assume a job working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year with a two-week paid vacation – a pretty common scenario. It also assumes a 22% federal tax bracket, 5% state taxes and 7.5% Social Security tax (my case). That means the government is taking 32.5% of gross income – also a common case. Sales tax is about-9% in my state, further increasing the out-of-pocket cost of factory ammo..

Take the Hornady 140g ELD-M Match ammo. Add in a 9% sales tax and the out-the-door, out-of-pocket cost is $28.76. That is $20.74 higher than my reload cost. To put $20.74 in my pocket at work, I'd have to earn $30.73 per hour – same as the take-home pay for a job paying $63,918.40/year.

The out-the-door cost for the Nosler 129g ABLR load is $64.30 with a 9% sales tax. I can save $50.61 reloading the same bullet. That is equivalent to a $74.98 hourly rate or $155,953.78 annually.

Real costs for the others will fall somewhere between the Hornady and Nosler examples. Another reason to reload, hang the cost, is to create loads that are not duplicated by any factory ammo. I shoot a fair number of those.

I've always figured I work to live, not live to work. When I am reloading I am doing something I enjoy and saving money at the same time. I do it when I please, at a time I choose. People that insist I don't save money just don't know *** they are talking about.

 

[dsfloors]

I'll be 72 this year, none of my kids are reloading. They can but my oldest son and grandson bow hunt mostly and my other son likes pistols and factory ammo. He shoots a lot but mostly 9mm. Anyway I was getting tired of it. I've been reloading since the mid 1970's.
Had a couple of good friends( young guys) just getting into reloading so they came over and got it all. Good guys and they are enjoying it !!!

So I head to the range today for the first time with 3 rifles and all factory ammunition.

Pre 64 270 is shooting around 1" per several 3 shot groups with Barnes 130 TTSX.

Barrett Fieldcraft 6.5 Creedmoor is an inch (some better) with several groups. I used all factory loads, Hornady 147 ELDX 2710 FPS, Berger 156 EOL 2638 FPS, and Berger 135 Classic Hunter 2735 FPS

Then a GAP Xtreme Hunter, 6.5 PRC, I shot only Hornady 143 ELDX , 3010 FPS. Around 18 shots today at just barely a little over an inch for all.

So, I was happy with the results today shooting at 100 yards !! Gonna shoot in a few days at 200 yards then later this summer we'll be shooting out to 900 and in between with the 65's. Life is still good, haha !!!

The Barrett is a nice gun.I never shot factory Ammo in it

 

[coop2564]

Many competition shooters are using factory rounds and winning, its becoming more the norm than not. I'm a hunter that shoots med/long range out to 800 yds. I've been reloading since 1990. I do enjoy it most of the time. Working up a load is very time consuming for just fractions of an inch often. I can tell you now most military snipers will tell you, you nor your reloads will shoot .25 moa everyday. Under set conditions for a day you might get the right conditions, but not day in day out. Most are perfectly happy staying inside 1 moa for their purposes. In a way they are hunters too not target shooters, they target shoot to become better hunters. Many do shoot competitions too. Some reload some use factory match. another thing to consider is your gun, a custom deep throat gun will likely never shoot factory as well as reloads designed for that long throat. But many spec guns will shoot premium factory loads so close to reloads that the avg shooter day in day out cant perceive the difference. I can not reload a load yet in my 6.5 CM Bergara HMR that will out shoot Fed premium 135 hybrid hunters, after spending hundreds of dollars on different powders and bullets I gave up, in that gun I use that factory load. But I have a 7 RM that my HL's beat every factory load due to its custom throat. I'll say this too, the Avg reloader today with the Avg equipment sold today will not take the time and precision needed to build a better round than premium factory rds. There are many elite reloaders that do but talking Avg guy reloader, I know because I'm avg guy.

 

[UplandFreak]

In an earlier post, I listed the cost of my reloads vs current factory offerings. I am relisting them here for purposes of illustration (read so I don['t have to keep going back to the other post).

Hornady 140g ELD-M
$8.02 = reload
$26.39 = Hornady Match

Hornady 143g ELD-X
$11.65 = reload
$28.99 = Hornady Precision Hunter

Nosler 129g AB Long Range
$13.69 = reload w/ H100V
$14.20 = reload w/ StaBall
$58.99 = Nosler Trophy Grade 129g AB Long Range
$43.99 = Nosler Trophy Grade 142g AB Long Range
$46.99 = Federal Premium 130g Terminal Ascent (Out of stock)

Swift 130g Scirocco II
$16.25 = reload
$41.99 = Norma 130g Swift Scirocco II
$41.99 = Federal Premium 130g Scirocco II (Coming soon)

Barnes 127g LRX
$19.40 = reload
$36.99 = Barnes VOR-TX 127g LRX

The comparisons seem fairly straight forward, but that is somewhat deceiving. The factory ammo costs do not include time and costs required to acquire the factory ammo or the fact that factory ammo is purchased with post-tax dollars. The money saved by reloading is the equivalent of pre-tax dollars and it is something that can be done at the reloader's convenience.

The following assume a job working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year with a two-week paid vacation – a pretty common scenario. It also assumes a 22% federal tax bracket, 5% state taxes and 7.5% Social Security tax (my case). That means the government is taking 32.5% of gross income – also a common case. Sales tax is about-9% in my state, further increasing the out-of-pocket cost of factory ammo..

Take the Hornady 140g ELD-M Match ammo. Add in a 9% sales tax and the out-the-door, out-of-pocket cost is $28.76. That is $20.74 higher than my reload cost. To put $20.74 in my pocket at work, I'd have to earn $30.73 per hour – same as the take-home pay for a job paying $63,918.40/year.

The out-the-door cost for the Nosler 129g ABLR load is $64.30 with a 9% sales tax. I can save $50.61 reloading the same bullet. That is equivalent to a $74.98 hourly rate or $155,953.78 annually.

Real costs for the others will fall somewhere between the Hornady and Nosler examples. Another reason to reload, hang the cost, is to create loads that are not duplicated by any factory ammo. I shoot a fair number of those.

I've always figured I work to live, not live to work. When I am reloading I am doing something I enjoy and saving money at the same time. I do it when I please, at a time I choose. People that insist I don't save money just don't know *** they are talking about.

I laughed out loud when I read this - pre and post tax is more often than not associated with retirement accounts. You still pay sales tax on reloading components. $600 worth of components is taxed the same at $600 worth of factory ammo. It literally takes me 10 min to order my ammo online - that is hundreds of rounds. I think my last order was for 400 rounds of PRC, CM and 243 ammo. Most places will give free shipping if you order enough. I never pay retail for ammo. 6.5 prc ammo, $29/box. 6.5 CM ammo is closer to $20 and 6mm CM is about the same. Add in 75/hr to your reloading costs, it adds up quickly. You are trying to rationalize you cost savings and the only way you do that is if you love reloading and don't care about your time. I personally dislike the process. I would rather be at the range.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

I laughed out loud when I read this - pre and post tax is more often than not associated with retirement accounts. You still pay sales tax on reloading components. $600 worth of components is taxed the same at $600 worth of factory ammo. It literally takes me 10 min to order my ammo online - that is hundreds of rounds. I think my last order was for 400 rounds of PRC, CM and 243 ammo. Most places will give free shipping if you order enough. I never pay retail for ammo. 6.5 prc ammo, $29/box. 6.5 CM ammo is closer to $20 and 6mm CM is about the same. Add in 75/hr to your reloading costs, it adds up quickly. You are trying to rationalize you cost savings and the only way you do that is if you love reloading and don't care about your time. I personally dislike the process. I would rather be at the range.

For $600, at $20 per box, I can only get 600 rounds of 6.5CM ammo. For $600 in components, I can get 1,500 rounds by reloading.

Why would I value my reloading time at $75/hour? I don't do that for anything I do for recreation – time spent not worrying about making money but still concerned about spending it. Reloading lets me spend less for more.

While I value my down time a great deal, dollars are not the primary or even an important measure of that value. Never have been, never will be.

You don't like reloading. Fine, don't do it.

I'll continue reloading and shoot more because of it.

 

[Tangent]

For $600, at $20 per box, I can only get 600 rounds of 6.5CM ammo. For $600 in components, I can get 1,500 rounds by reloading.

Why would I value my reloading time at $75/hour? I don't do that for anything I do for recreation – time spent not worrying about making money but still concerned about spending it. Reloading lets me spend less for more.

While I value my down time a great deal, dollars are not the primary or even an important measure of that value. Never have been, never will be.

You don't like reloading. Fine, don't do it.

I'll continue reloading and shoot more because of it.

Are you honestly not getting the point that many of us have posted time and time again? I'll try one last time:

If reloading is a separate independent hobby that you enjoy, go nuts.

If you want to make up numbers to make yourself feel better or rationalize costs, go nuts

If you want to perform a true cost comparison you must include all tools, materials, and labor. That's how a cost comparison works. You don't get to say that brass is used more than once so it's free. It's not free, and you need to spread out the cost over the number of times that material is used. You don't get to ignore the price of your equipment - you amortize over number of rounds made with said equipment. You can get slightly more involved if you truly want a life cycle cost, but above is the absolute bare bones minimum - tools, material, and labor.

Whether you realize it or not, you have assigned a value to your time of $0.00/hour. Myself and others have stated that our time is more valuable than $0.00 at this point in our lives. Maybe in 30 years, I will say my time is free, but not now.

Nobody is saying that you are wrong for doing something you like. Some of us are just pointing out that your cost comparisons are riddled with holes.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

Are you honestly not getting the point that many of us have posted time and time again? I'll try one last time:

If reloading is a separate independent hobby that you enjoy, go nuts.

I do, and I will continue to do so.

If you want to make up numbers to make yourself feel better or rationalize costs, go nuts

If you want to perform a true cost comparison you must include all tools, materials, and labor. That's how a cost comparison works. You don't get to say that brass is used more than once so it's free. It's not free, and you need to spread out the cost over the number of times that material is used. You don't get to ignore the price of your equipment - you amortize over number of rounds made with said equipment. You can get slightly more involved if you truly want a life cycle cost, but above is the absolute bare bones minimum - tools, material, and labor.

If I include tools and amortize by the year, it comes to around $33 per year. Amortizing by cartridge, it comes to about $0.05 or $1 per box.



A LOT of my brass came to me for $0.00. Free. I am not going to assign a $ value to it when I calculate reload costs. The free brass includes .223/5.56, .22-250, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm RM, .30-08, .30-06, .380 ACP, 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45ACP. We're talking a couple hundred cases minimum per cartridge, with some over a thousand.

Whether you realize it or not, you have assigned a value to your time of $0.00/hour. Myself and others have stated that our time is more valuable than $0.00 at this point in our lives. Maybe in 30 years, I will say my time is free, but not now.

Nobody is saying that you are wrong for doing something you like. Some of us are just pointing out that your cost comparisons are riddled with holes.

I don't assign a dollar value to the time I'm sleeping, eating or a lot of other things. The proper way to value my time spent reloading is with respect to what I would be earning if I wasn't reloading. The would be $0.00.

 

[excaliber]

Some people like to argue for the sake of arguing. This thread is way past being useful at this point. Let's just agree that if you want to reload and build faster more accurate ammo then you have the choice to do that. If you want to buy factory ammo go ahead and do that if it makes you happy.

How does that work for everyone?

 

[HuntnPack]