If I were to hunt grizzlies or polar bear then the .338 magnum would be appropriate but for Elk, deer and such the 30.06 is a great round. 90 grains to 220 grains is the range available to use for anything in north america. 99% of the time the extra power from the .338 is not needed. 185 grains is all I ever used when I shot a black bear 298 lbs. back ten years ago w/ the .338 in Vermont. Recoil is about 33 lbs. compared to 20 pounds .06. Weatherby Mark V .338 is no longer w/ us anymore. There is definately such a thing as being over gunned. I love the .240 weatherby mag. and I have made record shots w/ that puppy. Anyway's, nice to read all the post from guys like yourselves who trully love everything involving hunting and such. Tanks for allowing me to share.
wanting to build a "mountain rifle"
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Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
I've seen enough game killed with .338 bullets to know what they do. I also have seen enough game killed, to know that scrambled vitals equals dead game. I don't much care what diameter your bullet is, or how much energy it has, as long as it gets into the chest cavity and messes up the heart or lungs, it's game over. Break a shoulder or two, or the spine, and it's over all the quicker.
We are talking about a mountain rifle, which is a compromise between ballistic performance and packability. I believe that a 7mm of some sort fits that compromise better than does a .338, unless we're talking about extreme ranges. At the end of the day, either one would work fine, as long as you can put the bullet where it needs to go. If you can't put the bullet where it needs to go, then you shouldn't be taking the shot.
yotehunter243
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thanks guys. The more i read what you guys say and more research i do i think a 7STW or 7RUM shooting the heavy 180-195gr VLD. I have plenty of smaller calibers just really wanting a good solid all around big game rifle.
Outlaw6.0
Well-Known Member
... 99% of the time the extra power from the .338 is not needed..... There is definately such a thing as being over gunned.... QUOTE]
To quote Burt Gummer from the first Tremors movie.... "When you need it & don't have it, you will sing a different tune."
There is no such thing as over gunned, or over kill. Dead is dead & I have yet to see anything killed too much.
Lets throw out the "paper ballistics" for a minute & look at the real world values of .284 vs .338. The two factors that come to mind & make a REAL difference in killing power are 1- cross sectional area & 2- weight.
If we are to do an apples to apples comparison, we will examine the two calibers in discussion 7mm & .338. Compare each in the SAME scenario:
Shot one: Broadside, perfect placement behind or just into the shoulder.
7mm: dead elk
338: dead elk
Shot two: Broadside, pulled shot, diaphram area. (whether or not you will admit it, this will happen to everyone).
7mm: LOTS of tracking, lots of hours of follow-up, possible loss of animal..
338: Very sick animal, exponentially less tracking & hours spent. FAR Greater chance of recovering your animal... let me say that again. FAR Greater chance of recovering your animal...
The cross sectional area of a bullet is a far greater determination of killing power (all other variables being the same) than it is usually given credit for. A 300 grain bullet will ALWAY create more trauma upon impact & a 300 grain bullet will ALWAYS destroy more tissue, break more bones than a bullet of lesser caliber (again, all other variables being the same: Bullet construction etc).
SP6x6 has shown us what a perfectly suitable & very packable 338 is, you don't have to sacrifice power to attain the proper weight, but you do have to do a little home work
Please don't take my post as hostility, that is not what I mean to do. I'm simply trying to show what a guy like me had to learn the hard way. When you have the opportunity to increase your margin for error (I assume we are all human), then why the heck not?
OP, you stated looking at the 7STW & RUM, they will undoubtedly kill an elk & quite effectively. Just know your limits, as stated before, a well placed shot is much more useful than a poorly placed shot.
PS- A large 338 is going to have better BBL life than either of those 7mm's
Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you're saying, for the most part. The part that I quoted is where I start to question the logic, here. I think there are way too many other variables to be able to predict the animal's reaction to the shot, based solely on bullet diameter. A much more significant variable, is bullet performance. Bullet performance is obviously affected by bullet design and impact velocity. It's also important to note that one of those variables is the individual animal's reaction to a hit. Different animals react differently to an identical bullet wound, which adds another layer of complication to the comparison between one bullet diameter/weight and another.
I would suggest that a 7mm 180gr VLD that impacts the diaphragm area at 2200 fps will do a bunch more damage, and have a more noticeable effect on the animal, than a .338 300gr bullet of similar design that impacts at 1600-1700fps and doesn't expand nearly as violently.
As a general trend, and assuming all else is equal, I would concur that the .338 will do more damage. BUT, all else is rarely equal, and there are many, many variables at play when a bullet impacts a big-game animal. It would be unrealistic to single out one variable (that being bullet diameter) and say that the results will always be directly proportional to that variable.
For a general purpose mountain rifle that could potentially be used at short range or long, where a guy might not always be able to put on hearing protection before the shot, he might not want to use a brake. If he thinks the rifle might get carried up a mountain after sheep or high-elevation MD or elk, he might opt for an 8 lbs rifle instead of one that weighs 12 lbs. As an all-around rifle, he may not want to deal with the price of .338 bullets and 100gr of powder per shot for practising, nor the muzzle blast that accompanies such a large powder charge. If you can deal with a 12 lbs rifle with a brake, and the cost of .338 components, then why not go with a .338 or some flavour. But if you're looking for a rifle that is more general purpose and can pull off the long-range shots when needed, I don't think you can go wrong with an 8 lbs rifle in a 7mm of some sort. If this were a dedicated 1200+ yard rifle, things would be different.
Outlaw6.0
Well-Known Member
Well though out points, please allow my rebuttal. The area I have highlighted in red is where I feel we have again strayed from apples to apples & are again back to apples & oranges. Here is why:
I utilized basic inputs with JBM ballistics for the 7mm 180VLD & 338 300 OTM.
A 7mm-180 VLD with a published G1 BC of .659 (Source: Berger Website) launched at a velocity of 2950 will achieve your stated velocity of 2200fps at approx 600yds where it carries approx 2k/lbs of energy (pretty respectable).
A 338- 300 OTM (Open Tip Match) with a published BC of .818 (Source: Midway USA) launched at an average velocity of 2750 will achieve your stated velocity window of 1600-1700fps AT OVER 1200YDS, more than double the window you provided for the 7mm. Where the 338 is still packing 1994.7 ft/lb of energy. Now lets give the 338 2200fps (which actually occurs at 600ydslightbulb), where we are looking at 3250lb/ft of energy or a half ton more than the 7mm.
No matter the yardage, the 7mm loses the horsepower war. More energy spread across a larger frontal area will create more trauma upon impact. Which is a widely recognized concession why our African counterparts have a caliber minimum for the big nasties, big bullets kill better.
I'm still thinking my 338-300 combo into the diaphram @ 1200 is going to be more effective than the 7mm-180 @ 600. I don't see many of our LRH brethren posting softball+ sized exit holes on extended range animals w/the 7mm....
Moving on to other parts of your post, I totally agree no two animals will act the same, I will offer no agruement; your statement is a matter of fact.
Cost.... the cheapest part of the hunt is your cartridge. 7mm-180VLD= $46.50/100 or ~.47cents/ea. The 338-300 OTM= $40.00/50 or ~.80cents/ea.
Now, lest extend the cost using Remington Brass, Hodgdon Retumbo & Federal 215M's for both cartridges (7mm Rem Mag & 338 RUM).
If buying all components new (all sourced via Midway USA), we are looking at an average cost per round via a nice little handloading cost calculator handed down to us Handloading Cost Calculator. The 7mm is looking at ~$1.37/round (labor not included) the .338RUM is looking at a cost of $2.21/round.... less than .90 cents, but a definite advantage to the 7mm.
Now that we have our brass, lets eliminate the cost of the brass as we don't need to buy new brass every time. The extended costs are substantially reduced. The 7mm drops to ~.75cents per round & the .338 drops to ~$1.15/round... .40 cents around ..... please don't tell me we need to argue about .40cents...
As far as hearing protection goes... yup the 7mm will be a lot quieter, because, YES! you definitely need a brake for any magnum .338 (at least I do
). Ear plugs don't weigh a heck of a lot & are fairly easy to install. If you want to go another route, grab a pair of Walker's Game Ears or equivelant. You can put them in at any time & roll on with your day, take your shot & they will muffle the report as advertised.Jordan, thanks for the intelligent conversation. I do appreciate both being able to debate w/o anyone getting offended while offering an opinion that differs (sometimes quite a bit
.) This is one of the main reasons I come to this site.Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
Well though out points, please allow my rebuttal. The area I have highlighted in red is where I feel we have again strayed from apples to apples & are again back to apples & oranges. Here is why:
I utilized basic inputs with JBM ballistics for the 7mm 180VLD & 338 300 OTM.
A 7mm-180 VLD with a published G1 BC of .659 (Source: Berger Website) launched at a velocity of 2950 will achieve your stated velocity of 2200fps at approx 600yds where it carries approx 2k/lbs of energy (pretty respectable).
A 338- 300 OTM (Open Tip Match) with a published BC of .818 (Source: Midway USA) launched at an average velocity of 2750 will achieve your stated velocity window of 1600-1700fps AT OVER 1200YDS, more than double the window you provided for the 7mm. Where the 338 is still packing 1994.7 ft/lb of energy. Now lets give the 338 2200fps (which actually occurs at 600ydslightbulb), where we are looking at 3250lb/ft of energy or a half ton more than the 7mm.
No matter the yardage, the 7mm loses the horsepower war. More energy spread across a larger frontal area will create more trauma upon impact. Which is a widely recognized concession why our African counterparts have a caliber minimum for the big nasties, big bullets kill better.
I'm still thinking my 338-300 combo into the diaphram @ 1200 is going to be more effective than the 7mm-180 @ 600. I don't see many of our LRH brethren posting softball+ sized exit holes on extended range animals w/the 7mm....
Moving on to other parts of your post, I totally agree no two animals will act the same, I will offer no agruement; your statement is a matter of fact.
Cost.... the cheapest part of the hunt is your cartridge. 7mm-180VLD= $46.50/100 or ~.47cents/ea. The 338-300 OTM= $40.00/50 or ~.80cents/ea.
Now, lest extend the cost using Remington Brass, Hodgdon Retumbo & Federal 215M's for both cartridges (7mm Rem Mag & 338 RUM).
If buying all components new (all sourced via Midway USA), we are looking at an average cost per round via a nice little handloading cost calculator handed down to us Handloading Cost Calculator. The 7mm is looking at ~$1.37/round (labor not included) the .338RUM is looking at a cost of $2.21/round.... less than .90 cents, but a definite advantage to the 7mm.
Now that we have our brass, lets eliminate the cost of the brass as we don't need to buy new brass every time. The extended costs are substantially reduced. The 7mm drops to ~.75cents per round & the .338 drops to ~$1.15/round... .40 cents around ..... please don't tell me we need to argue about .40cents...
As far as hearing protection goes... yup the 7mm will be a lot quieter, because, YES! you definitely need a brake for any magnum .338 (at least I do
Jordan, thanks for the intelligent conversation. I do appreciate both being able to debate w/o anyone getting offended while offering an opinion that differs (sometimes quite a bit
Yessir! You've also made some very valid points. At the end of the day, there are many options because different folks choose different strokes to accomplish the same thing
The .338 300gr OTM is a very new bullet. In order to keep things on the razor's edge of technology, let's also use a bullet that is about to be released in 7mm- the 195gr EOL Hybrid. This bullet has a predicted G1 BC of 0.794, and a G7 of 0.406. It shouldn't be a problem to start this bullet at 2850fps from a 7WSM or 7RM that is throated properly, and is built with proper mag latitude. A larger 7mm would obviously push it even faster. JBM gives the 7mm bullet 1709 ft-lbs of energy at 800 yards, and the .338 has 2485 ft-lbs. The 7mm has 1987fps, and the .338 has 1932fps at that range. The .338 drops to 1709 ft-lbs of energy at ~1165 yards. It's velocity is 1605fps at that range (expansion would be very questionable at this impact velocity).
There is no question that the .338 has more energy, frontal area, and bullet mass, and is capable of doing more damage. The reason that I mentioned the comparison in the first place, is that many guys wouldn't hesitate to shoot elk and other game beyond 1165 yards with the .338 300gr OTM, at which point its energy would be less than what the 7mm has at 800, and bullet expansion would be minimal if the 300gr bullet impacts at 1605fps, as where the 7mm would likely expand reasonably well at 800 yards, impacting at 1987fps. So if the .338 300gr OTM is the ultimate elk slayer even beyond 1165 yards, then the 7mm 195gr EOL Hybrid should be just as awesome at 800 yards (since expansion at 800 yards will be much better for the 7mm, than the .338 at 1165 yards).
Ultimately what I'm saying is, how much horsepower do you need? A VLD or Hybrid that fragments and goes to pieces in the diaphragm is going to do some major damage, whether it started out as a .338 300gr bullet, or a 7mm 195gr bullet. How much the bullet fragments is determined by impact velocity, and the resistance that the bullet meets. A .338 bullet is a fraction of an inch larger in diameter than the 7mm bullet, but if both bullets violently expand, they both will create a wound channel much larger than the original diameter of the bullet. The wound channel is several inches in diameter, as compared to the original bullet diameter of 1/3 of an inch, or less. So I would argue that if both bullets expand violently, they both will destroy a lot of tissue, and the animal is going to die in short order. Now if one of the bullets impacts at a velocity where expansion is questionable, then the other bullet will do more damage.
As far as the cost goes, it's not the price of the 1 bullet that you use to kill the animal that is the concern. In order to be proficient enough with either rifle to take shots at 800+ yards, a guy needs to spend a whole lot of time and components practising with that rifle at long range. This is where the cost comes into play. Let's just say that a guy should shoot 1000 rounds before he is ready to shoot at game at 800 yards (including load development, practise, etc). If we take your figure of $0.40 per shot difference between the 7mm and the .338, then that would be $400 difference just to do the amount of practise that we're calling necessary to even start shooting game at 800 yards. If we consider the life of the barrel, maybe 1500-2000 rounds, then that would be $600-800 difference between the two, or roughly enough to pay for a new barrel (or maybe two) when the original burns out.
Some guys are okay with wearing magnified hearing protection in the field, (and I own and use a similar set of ear muffs, on occasion) but some guys choose not to. If a guy prefers not to constantly wear something like that in the field, then he needs a rifle that isn't going to blow his ears out. For a dedicated LR rig, you will always have time to put some hearing protection on before squeezing off the shot, but a general-purpose hunting rig might be used for close, quick shots, where there is no time for that. That's the problem with putting 100gr of powder through a braked rifle. You've gotta be willing to wear hearing protection for each and every shot.
It's been a fun conversation, and I really think that you can't go wrong with either option. Both will get the job done. If a guy has the skill set to put the bullet where it needs to go, then he's going to be eating steak. If not, then it's a fool's errand to rely on more horsepower to save the day. Hunters shouldn't try to substitute money and power simply because they'd rather not spend the time and effort that are necessary to develop shooting skill at the range. Although, I think this happens far too often. That's just a general comment, not directed toward you in any way.
I'd be far more concerned about the bull elk standing in front of Pat Sinclair, with his .260 or .308, at 900 yards, than I would about the one standing in front of the novice with a .338 LM at the same distance.
Shawn Carlock, Kirby Allen, and others, would also strike a lot more fear with a 6.5x284 than would most fellas holding a big .338.
Outlaw6.0
Well-Known Member
Yessir! You've also made some very valid points. At the end of the day, there are many options because different folks choose different strokes to accomplish the same thing
1)
Some guys are okay with wearing magnified hearing protection in the field, (and I own and use a similar set of ear muffs, on occasion) but some guys choose not to. If a guy prefers not to constantly wear something like that in the field, then he needs a rifle that isn't going to blow his ears out. For a dedicated LR rig, you will always have time to put some hearing protection on before squeezing off the shot, but a general-purpose hunting rig might be used for close, quick shots, where there is no time for that. That's the problem with putting 100gr of powder through a braked rifle. You've gotta be willing to wear hearing protection for each and every shot.
2)
It's been a fun conversation, and I really think that you can't go wrong with either option. Both will get the job done. If a guy has the skill set to put the bullet where it needs to go, then he's going to be eating steak. If not, then it's a fool's errand to rely on more horsepower to save the day. Hunters shouldn't try to substitute money and power simply because they'd rather not spend the time and effort that are necessary to develop shooting skill at the range. Although, I think this happens far too often.
QUOTE]
I only kept a couple of paragraphs to discuss (great return BTW). When the 195 EOL comes out, the 7mm world will change without a doubt.
1)- hearing protection & fire arms in the world of audiology are a topic of enthusiasm. As you & I both agree, hearing protection with a Braked rifle loosing 90-100grns of powder is an absolute necessity. Your audiologist will tell you that hearing protection is also required with an unbraked rifle loosing ~70ish grains of powder.... ask my tinitus after god knows how many untold thousands of rounds of 12ga...... what did you say?
2)- I think your paragraph should be a sticky on here & I hope my posts didn't convey that a person can make up with skill buy increasing the caliber. That was not my intent, albeit I can see it being taken that way. You're right, it does happen quite a bit.
The money side we may have to agree to disagree on, $400 over the course of 1k rounds is of little to no consequence for me. We're talking months of shooting to achieve that, even at 50 rounds a week, we're looking at 5 months to acheve that or $20/wk. A sum even the most frugal of us would consider trivial (for the intended purpose of course
Good shooting gun)
why not build a rifle that can do it all?
Practical Riflery Forums... techniques and equipment of the practical rifleman... :: View topic - Machaira... (!)
Practical Riflery Forums... techniques and equipment of the practical rifleman... :: View topic - Machaira... (!)
Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
I only kept a couple of paragraphs to discuss (great return BTW). When the 195 EOL comes out, the 7mm world will change without a doubt.
1)- hearing protection & fire arms in the world of audiology are a topic of enthusiasm. As you & I both agree, hearing protection with a Braked rifle loosing 90-100grns of powder is an absolute necessity. Your audiologist will tell you that hearing protection is also required with an unbraked rifle loosing ~70ish grains of powder.... ask my tinitus after god knows how many untold thousands of rounds of 12ga...... what did you say?
2)- I think your paragraph should be a sticky on here & I hope my posts didn't convey that a person can make up with skill buy increasing the caliber. That was not my intent, albeit I can see it being taken that way. You're right, it does happen quite a bit.
The money side we may have to agree to disagree on, $400 over the course of 1k rounds is of little to no consequence for me. We're talking months of shooting to achieve that, even at 50 rounds a week, we're looking at 5 months to acheve that or $20/wk. A sum even the most frugal of us would consider trivial (for the intended purpose of course
Good shooting gun)
Good shooting to you too, sir! If you ever make your way up here, drop me a line. I'd love to ring some steel with you, or grab lunch or something.
My mountain rifle is 7-2 oz.bare,8-12 oz scoped.338 Norma and good for extreme range.I have put bullets in 6'' @ 1000,and practice to 15-1600. I shoot it off my atlas practice and same hunting.Unless they are looking at me like last year.Slid my hoop ear plugs in,BOOM,and another 6x6 bits the dust. I can run no brake for close in timber work,but I always check what I am shooting,probably cost me a bigger bull last year,because I didnt jump shot him.Which buy the way a big 338 is perfect for.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Man it's nice to see a couple guys be able to discuss the merits of a position without getting their panties wedged up between their ears, THANKS!!!!
I would add that some of us shoot what we do because of the terrain we hunt elk in, I get away with a lot in my area and the ONLY reason a guy would need a magnum 338 is because he wants one or he's shooting over a 1200 yard but you go up in the kind of country sp6x6 hunts and get back into some ugly crap hole hung on a cliff and have an elk stubble a few steps into the next drainage and it can turn into an epic adventure getting them out. My area you just drag a little bit to the bottom and back the truck up, rarely do I not get an elk out whole, ideally they will stumble to the bottom and I back the truck up
I would add that some of us shoot what we do because of the terrain we hunt elk in, I get away with a lot in my area and the ONLY reason a guy would need a magnum 338 is because he wants one or he's shooting over a 1200 yard but you go up in the kind of country sp6x6 hunts and get back into some ugly crap hole hung on a cliff and have an elk stubble a few steps into the next drainage and it can turn into an epic adventure getting them out. My area you just drag a little bit to the bottom and back the truck up, rarely do I not get an elk out whole, ideally they will stumble to the bottom and I back the truck up
yotehunter243
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2011
- Messages
- 124
this turned into a great thread. Its great (as everyone else has stated) to see two guys debate awesome points on both ends. I believe for MY purpose in hunting i will try and go with a large 7mm case pushing the new 195VLD out of a 1:8.5 twist barrel. I want an Edge so bad i can taste it, but if i build one i want to build it big. Not light and skinny. Thanks again guys. Now what chambering should i chose to push the heavy 195??
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
There are two chamberings I have in mind for the 195 Berger, one is a long throated 7mm-300 win and a 7mm-300 Norma mag. Personally I despise a 7mm but this 195 Berger even gets me a little stoked to build one!!
