uso or nf

[Guest]

I have 4 NXS's ( 3--3.5-15x50's and 1--5.5-22x56)and couldn't be happier with them. I have to confess that I have never even looked thru a USO, and don't really want to. They have a bad rep for customer service and the company is run at the whim of one old man--not something I want to be a part of... My NXS's work fine--Just MY Opinion... CJ

[ 12-06-2003: Message edited by: Chris Jamison ]

 

[chris matthews]

Blaine,
Your right about the turret thing, I just figured "a line" was a quick explanation to simply show that a high price does not mean
high quality.
As far as problems with the variables I don't have any first hand knowledge, I am going off of what George (GA Precision) and Marty (Badger Ord.) has told me. If you call me at the shop I will ask them and get you specifics.

 

[Blaine Fields]

John M,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Can anyone give me specific reasons why a USO is better than the nightforce? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't own a NF, although I've heard good things about them. At a long range course I had a guy next to me who was using a NF come over to look through my USO 10X
and he told me that my image was clearer than his. What does that mean? I don't have a clue. I can only tell you that I am very happy with my scopes, they work well,
I can see well. I wouldn't trade them.

But I do have a more specific answer to your question. When I was looking around for scopes, I had a single choice for my particular requirements. I wanted a turret
that would get out to 40 or so MOA in a single turn. The only scopes out there that I could find could do this only by using 1 MOA clicks. I wanted something a
little finer. Then USO came out with its 45 MOA per revolution/0.5 MOA per click. That turret met my specifications; no other manufacturer made one that did. And
actually I still don't think anyone else is making that particular turret. I use this turret on a .308 Win. and a 300 WSM and the turret matches perfectly with the
supersonic range of each rifle - so I am able to use up all of the elevation I need, and none is wasted. It is a good turret.

That's why I say that it depends upon your requirements, taste and budget as to which scope is the best for you.

And besides, I don't think they're ugly.

[Image removed because it just messed up the entire thread.]

[ 12-09-2003: Message edited by: Blaine Fields ]

 

[Nighthawk]

That is not what I think, like I said the best one is the one you think is the best.

 

[Blaine Fields]

Being "the best" and being "the best for you" are two entirely different concepts. If you think that the best of anything is the one you think is the best, you have just done away with any concept of quality.

Objectively, the quality of products can be measured. For instance, in scopes we can test the ability to resolve distant objects with the USAF resolution target; we can measure the amount of light that is absorbed, reflected or transmitted by each lens; we can measure the durability of the turret springs and gears and how consistent and repeatable the adjustments are. These are all objective criteria I can say that if you have a scope that produces fuzzy, dark images and is built with plastic gears, it is not as high a quality of scope that has hardened metal gears, and good glass with superior coatings. And just because you think that your $29.95 made in China bargain is great doesn't make it so. However, if all you are going to do is mount it on a B-B gun, well maybe it's good enough. And for your purpose, you wouldn't need and couldn't use a $2500 Schmidt & Bender.

The application pretty much dictates the requirments.

 

[Guest]

Blaine, I agree with your point. I have a Vari-X II on my deer shotgun (Much of NY is shougun only) and a Nikon Monarch on my Muzzleloader. (Which I might add I purchased on this site from Nate Haler, saved $100 and Nate is a great guy!) That is what I needed for those weapons without overkill.

My 7mm STW is a custom rig build on a Rem Action...It wears a Leupold M1 3.5x10.
My 338 Lapua (almost ready!) was built on a Prairie Gun Works M18 action. Both have Mcmillian Stocks, STW has a Kreiger and Lapua a Lilja. The Lapua is getting Jewell Trigger. I want the best optics I can get for my Lapua since every inch of that weapon is custom. I think many scopes qualify for that, I'm going with NF because of Reticle choice (NP-R2), optical quality, ample MOA adjustment, and production quality.

All this for under $1200.

How does the quality of the USO, even the turret adjustment you wanted, justify the Extra $$$?

I still don't see it!

 

[SCL]

Gents,
I have had the opportunity to own or use quality glass from all of the major makers, U.S. and foreign. For all of you guys wondering why USO scopes cost what they do, and if they are worth it, here goes:

Think of the USO scopes as a custom made product - because that is what they truly are. You can choose tube sizes (30mm and up), objective sizes, reticle, etc. etc. on their scopes. With USO you can purchase a scope made specifically for your mission/operational requirements. With the exception of the ST-10, you are buying a custom product made to your specs. You are not/not buying a mass produced scope like everything else on the market. I am not flaming mass produced scopes - S&B, Zeiss, et al make great glass, and most users can find a mass produced scope that satisfies their needs. However, if you want or need something different, USO is the way to go.

For true long range applications, you will not find a better product - their scopes have hi-res or super hi-res lenses that are better than S&B/Zeiss/NF glass, far more elevation available (particularly in larger than 30mm tubes - or go with the SN-9 external adjustment for 300 MOAs)...and their scopes truly are tough as nails.

I am amazed by how many folks complain that it takes months to get a USO scope, yet have no problems waiting a few months for a McMillan stock if purchased directly from McMillan. Custom gun afficionados will wait years for a top-name gunsmith to build them a custom made blaster...yet bitch that it took a year to get a custom made scope. These guys pay Mark Morris or Larry Vickers $6K to build a 1911 style .45, and then scoff at a scope for $2500 - $3500. That optical device is built to far closer tolerances than any pistol or rifle action could ever hope to be.

If you balk at the price of USO stuff, then your operational needs dictate that you don't need one, and your money is best served in the high quality mass production marketplace. If mass produced items aren't satisfying your needs, then USO is where you need to go. Of course, high end mass production items (i.e. the latest generation S&B scopes) are now in the same pricing ballpark as custom USO offerings, which may make your purchasing decision a bit more difficult. If in doubt, I would prefer to dictate the specs I want, rather than let the mass production factory decide what I need.

I made the switch to USO when I needed true long range optics. Would I put them on every rifle I own? Yes, if I could afford it, but a .223 or .308 really doesn't need a USO scope, of course with the deal they are offering at sniper's hide, I'll probably put them on my smaller guns .50BMG, .338 LM, .408 CT's all sport USO glass and I couldn't be happier with their performance - they are suerior to everything else in the marketplace for long range shooting.

Regarding customer service, lawsuits, etc. etc. I really don't give a **** as long as the product works and the company stands behind their warranty. I have had nothing but excellent customer service from USO, and they have been very timely in answering my calls, e-mails, etc. They have made significant improvements in this area in the past few years. The biggest problem I ever had with them was getting a catalog delivered when I wanted to purchase my first scope. They have since put it online, so its a moot point. Their current deal over at SH is excellent, and is a far better product than S&B's and Leupold's in that price range.

One closing thought...how many second hand S&B's, Leupold's, NXS's etc can you find on the net? Compare that number to second-hand USO scopes - there are few to be found, and the resale value is quite high. I am no economist, but I interpret this as meaning most USO customers are happy with their scopes and are holding on to them - I certainly am.

I am not a USO employee, or hold any financial interst in them, I am just a guy who has used their producuts, as well as those of their competitors.

SCL

 

[Nicholas]

I have used Nightforce S&B and USoptics extensively. They are all really great scopes. There are things I love about each scope but no one scope is quite perfect. Perfect for me is not perfect for everyone. The thing I like the most about USoptics is they will try to get their scope as perfect for me as I ask, and that is a rare thing.

 

[SCL]

John M.,
I can find several NF NXS scopes for sale on the various boards - sturmgewehr, sniper country, sniper's hide, etc. etc. on any given day. If you are having problems finding a used one let me know and I'll point you towards some links. There are four NF scopes advertised at snipercountry right now...and only one USO, which is the first one I have seen for sale over there in a long time. :-( Personally, I would love for more second hand USO's to come into the market, they are just scarce as hen's teeth. If anyone out there has a spare SN-9, SN-2, or SN-3 they are unhappy with please shoot me a personal e-mail at [email protected] - I'll give you a fair price.

As I said in my previous post, if mass market scopes fit your need (and I gather from your post that the 110 MOA in your NSX does) then by all means, go with that - the money you save will buy a lot of ammo.

However, once you start pushing the outer limits of true super-long range shooting (which is getting harder and harder to do due to range limitations and urban sprawl - another topic for another day you will find that 110 MOA, hell, even 150 MOA out of a Loopy MK4 16X isn't enough, particularly if the glass isn't of best grade quality and resolution capability.

In the end, it all comes down to your needs -honestly, I don't think most shooters need USO scopes - they may want them for the quality, durablity, etc, and I don't fault them for that - if I could afford it, I would have USO glass on all of my guns. However, there are several cheaper mass market scopes out there that fill the bill for your .223, .220 swift, .308, etc.

If you want to be successful at ranges way out there...then USO is it. I'll go back to my custom gun metaphor from my first post - most average shooters won't tell much of a difference between a Heinie built 1911 and a full house custom from the Colt or Kimber factory custom shop - they have the same modifications, features, etc. However, the difference in quality and attention to detail in the Heinie is immediately obvious to a true afficionado or advanced pistolero. Additionally, Heinie will build you a superlative gun any way you want it - a commander size 9x23 or 10MM - no problem. Officer's frame with commander slide - no problem, etc. etc. USO is the same; 40mm tube with ultra-hi res glass - no problem. Special reticle designs - no problem, etc. No one else in the optics market will do that - period.

As a wise Chief Petty Officer once told me, "Quality is never cheap, but always affordable." If you are doing super-long range work, then nothing else in the marketplace comes close to USO, and the scopes become affordable because there is nothing else out there that will do the job as well as USO (IMHO). If you are shooting your .308 out to 600 - 1200 meters then a NXS is a great choice. Try reaching out and touching something accurately, at 2,500 meters plus and its a different environment altogether - NF NXS scopes are a great choice if your budget cannot take purchasing a USO, however once you use a USO long range scope at those ranges on a quality long range rig, you will wonder how you ever got by without it. Just my .02, YMMV.

SCL

 

[Guest]

NF gives me 110 MOA (more than enough), Tough Scope body, great glass, excellent reticle selection...USO is that much better???

There aren't too many used NF NXS scopes around for resale either.

Who else has used both scopes?

 

[Blaine Fields]

John,

About justification. I understand exactly what you mean about the extra dollars. But here is my position on just about everything, whether related to shooting or not.

I still have the very first .22 I owned as a kid. I've still got the second one too. When I left the Marine Corps, I bought a sporterized 1903 from GySgt. Joe Peckhart, a guy who did gunsmithing at home. I paid $250 for it which was a lot to spend on a rifle in 1968. I still have it - and it's a thing of beauty. So the way I figure it, it really doesn't matter what you spend on this stuff, as long as you buy something of quality, because it will outlast you. In the long run, the overall cost is meaningless.

So, what I ask myself is not what it costs, but does it work? I bought a ZF-95 Kahles mildot which is a good scope made by a reputable manufacturer. The only problem was, my eyes hurt to look through it, parallax was terrible and within a short while of use, everything went blurry and my eyes started to tear up. I gave the scope away - to me it was absolutely worthless, no matter what the cost, or, for that matter, the savings.

When I got the USO scope, I swear I though I had died and gone to heaven. What a difference - no headaches, no eye problems, no parallax, no fucus problems. I could sit there all day and look at the clear, bright target. I could shoot under any conditions without difficulty. My assessment is this: the scope just plain works - it does everything a scope is supposted to do and does it well. And if I drop it (which I've already done), it will still work. It's enjoyable to use. So, what is that worth? To me, it's worth a lot.

I really don't need a justification to spend the additional money. I got something that works great, met my specifications, and will outlast me. Could I have gotten something a little cheaper? Sure. Could I have shopped around for a better deal? Sure. Could I have found something a little less expensive, but the same general quality? Probably. But so what? After twenty-five years of use, will I actually care if I could have saved $400 way back when? Nope. Hell, it has only been a couple of years since I've been using it and I don't care even now. And that's saying something because over at Sniper's Hide USO is putting together some scope configurations and selling them at reduced prices and if I had waited, I could have saved about $500. But in the scheme of things, that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I'm really glad that I've had that scope to use for the last couple of years.

 

[Blaine Fields]

John,

I just had another thought. Last year I ordered a rifle from GA Gardner - it cost a little inexcess of $2000. Jeez, what a great rifle. Now, I'm not a young man and I've been around guns for a long time, but I just never thought I needed to spend that kind of money for a rifle. Now, I'm kicking myself for having waited so long.

How many Savages could I have purchased instead? A lot. But my rifle wears a stock that I wanted, and it's a good, solid thing. I has a barrel that I specified - a Mike Rock 5R - and after only 50 rounds, the rifle started to clean up with just a couple of patches. It was amazing, something I had never experienced with a store-bought rifle. And accurate? A month ago or so I competed with some bench-resters and turned in the second lowest 5-round group of the day. And this is just using the front bipod and a little bean-bag to stabalize the rear. Nothing fancy.

I truly regret not having acquired a custom gun earlier in life. I think it was Col. Townsend that said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting." That is the for sure truth.

Stop looking for deals and justifications. Get the good stuff and enjoy life.

[ 12-08-2003: Message edited by: Blaine Fields ]

 

[Guest]

Blaine, your explaination is very honest and the best I heard so far. I agree with you, if it makes you happy and works for you than thats it. I totally agree in 5 years , 10 years who cares what it cost.

I spent a ton on my custom rifles, I know they will last me for years. I see guys with gun cabinets full of factory crap. I have two quality rifles.

I happy with nightforce, I think it is a well made scope. I'm not going to buy the argument, however, that my NF is a mass produced piece of crap and USO is the light years better.

I'm sure your USO makes you very happy, I'm sure its quality made. But whether someone buys a NF or a USO is a matter of taste. BUT....the way SCL keeps refering to NF as "Mass Produced" is very arrogant. He is lumping NF with Tasco and other $35 scopes. It simply not true. A lot of people on this sight shoot ultra long range with leupolds.

There are other people who simply want a USO even if it made them blind just because its the most expensive. I learned long ago that the most $$$$ isn't always the best.


SCL says that my rifle will not shoot as far with the NF than a USO. I dont think it will shoot 1 inch less than its capabilites with a NF than a USO.

If this is not true then tell us WHY!!!
Also tell us whats wrong with the NF glass?

 

[Blaine Fields]

John,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I happy with nightforce, I think it is a well made scope. I'm not going to buy the argument, however, that my NF is a mass produced piece of crap and USO is the light years better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NF is certainly not a piece of crap, by a long shot. I think what SCL was saying was that NF (as well as Leupold, S&B, Zeiss, Swarovski, etc.) have specific models that they market. If you want something a little diffeerent, they can't accommodate you. There is no question that NF puts out a first class scope, however.

When I bought my USO variable, because of its size and the size of the adjustable objective, it didn't look right to me to get the scope with a 30mm tube. Even though there was no advantage to my getting a larger tube, nevertheless, simply for the balance and asthetics of it all, I ordered it with a 35mm tube and think it was the right decision. That's what SCL was referring to - the ability to pretty much build out your scope the way you want.

I think USO recognizes the problem this creates. First, some people don't know enough to spec out a scope and wind up making mistakes and being unhappy with the final result. Second, this semi-custom orientation comes with a price. So I think (from seeing what is going on at Sniper's Hide) that they are trying to standardize certain configurations in order to make production more economical and thus come into line with other good scope manufacturers who build standard products.

But I don't know anyone who says or thinks that NF produces inferior quality scopes because clearly they don't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> There are other people who simply want a USO even if it made them blind just because its the most expensive. I learned long ago that the most $$$$ isn't always the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you are right. There are always those who buy based on the price tag simple to have bragging rights - none of whom are on this forum, of course. I agree that the price tag doesn't always equate with the highest quality. I think Consumer Reports pretty much demonstrates that in every issue. But, on the flip side of that coin is the idea that when something looks to good to be true, it probably is. So, I just kind of chuckle when I see a new shooter log on and ask, "What is the best scope I can get for $250." The truth is, for that money you are not going to get much. It costs the manufacturer money to get good glass, good coatings, good metal and gears. That is just the fact of it. Good stuff costs money. Once you get up into the better Leupolds, NF, S&B, you are getting the good stuff. But, like SCL says, if you want or need something out of production specs, you will probably wind up at USO to get it made.