Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor,

To be fair about the Pac-Nor barrels, I have really not tested enough to give an educated review of their barrels. I have heard so many good things about Chris's barrels, especially the Super Match barrels that they can stand on their own rep.

I will say that I do find the Lilja barrels to have a slightly better bore finish after break in, again, I only have these three barrels to base this on so take that into account. Still, with my 257 Allens loaded with the 100 gr Wildcats to 4100 fps and the 130 gr Wildcats to +3600 fps, after 30 rounds down the pipe, I can clean the Lilja in 5 minutes as there is simply no copper fouling.

In the Pac-Nors this is not the case.

Again, let me be fair, in the Liljas I am shooting 100 to 145 gr bullets of .257 caliber in a 1-10 twist. In the Pac-Nor barrels I am shooting 156 gr ULD 257 bullets and 169.5 gr ULD 270 bullets, both with 1-8 twists. The ULD bullets have longer baring surfaces and the steeper twist rate increases the force needed to drive the bullet down teh bore.

Until I can get in my 1-7.5" Lilja .257" barrels and my 1-8" Lilaj 270 barrels, I just can not honestly say one is better then the other.

As far as accuracy goes, with these test barrels, teh Lilja barrels have a slight edge in accuracy, still the Pac-Nors have shot enough very tight groups to be impressed with them. In fact, this last weekend, I fired a three shot group at 500 yards that measured just over .500" with the Pac-Nor barreled 270 Allen Mag with the Wildcat ULD in a fireforming load no less!!!

I fired 8 three shot groups that day with the Wildcat ULD at 500 yards and the largest group was right at 3". Five of the 8 groups were under 2" at 500 yards.

Again, these were in virgin cased fireforming loads so obviously the Pac-Nors shoot.

The barrel I had to send back to Pac-Nor was just one of those things, it happens with anything in life. The good thing is that their service was top notch and as good as one could ask for. Pac-Nor is a class act all around.

I have had such amazing results with Lilja barrels that I just want to support Dan. I have never had a reason not to use his barrels, if I do my part as a rifle builder, they make me look very good.

Of course any of the top barrels will do that for a rifle builder.

I can not take any credit at all for teh 180 gr Wildcat design. I tell Richard what I think if he asks and he designs what works. He surely does not need my imput. We talk about the performance level we want to reach and he does the rest, in a month or so bullet show up for testing and I have yet to no be totally impressed with his skills.

He to makes my job much easier as a rifle builder.

As far as being able to have a good hearted spirited debate about different cartridges or theories on shooting. There are hundreds and even thousands of shooters and builders out there more experienced then I am. I know that, full well and as soon as youthink you are the tops is when you get knocked off the tower.

I'm just having fun and enjoy talking with everyone here. Are my wildcats the best invention ever, NO!

Am I reinventing the wheel, I suppose we all are with wildcats now days.

Are we all trying to push the envelope out farther everyday, I sure hope so, thats the fun of this sport and with teh group of shooters that are on this board.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Nomosendero]

Fiftydriver,

Since you are talking about velocities that we can logically
expect from a cartridge, I would like your opinion.
I have a 25-06 Sendero that finally is shooting good groups
with certain loads. I am getting 3,250 fps with 115 Triple
Shocks & 3,304 with 120 Part. I suspect that my pressures
are high, but I can load the cases a few times before the
pockets get too loose. Also, these loads are almost 100 FPS
Faster than my brother's 25-06, so maybe I have a fast barrel. Anyway, if I Ackley Improve this gun, how close can
I get to .257 Wea. velocities. I am not sure that I want to
open up the bolt to chamber a belted mag. BTW, your rounds
look good and I would like to try a 270 or 7mm version later.

 

[thocon]

Have you ever thought of building the next level of gun?I know Germans had BIG guns that shot a bullet 2 inches smaller than the barrel,So i know they were pushing pressures out of normal thinking.And there gun never blew up,so i think the next level is to throw out the recievers made by corprate America,and start over.How about the shoot around corner gun?Also i know of a Jap gun that wouldn't blow up,they ended up putting a ramrod down the barrel when they shot it,and all it did was strip the threads off the barrel.So all parts are not the same.I realy try to build/modify a gun for use and practicallity,not looks.I'll send some pic's in of my bullpup 30-338 win 70.I wish i would have pattened my muzzel loader 4 yars ago,Break open on a nef frame,32 in.Well keep on keeping on.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Nomosendero,

You have a faster then average barrel but I have seen these velocities in 25-06 rifles before. If your only getting three firings per case, I would personally drop down 50 to 75 fps and get another 2 firings at least but that is me personally. Just from a brass cost standpoint.

That said, if your rifle is shooting best where you have it, I would not chance a thing. You are not in dangerous pressure levels by any means so give your rifle what is likes and it soulds like you are.

100 fps variation from one rifle to another is common, even with same barrel length so this would not alarm me to much, just the nature of the game.

I have build several 25-06 AI with a very accurate reamer I had JGS build for me. Performance of the 25-06 AI is generally very close to factory published specs of the 257 Wby.

I like to tell guys they will get 100 to 125 fps more velocity with the AI chamber then they would with the parent case. That said, this is generally a very conservative estimate and they tend to get more then that in velocity gains.

It is an impressive little round, all the AI rounds on teh '06 case tend to do very well in performance for their size. The 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 7mm and 30-06 Ackley Improved rounds all come very close to their belted magnum brothers in velocity. Generally within 100 fps in same length barrels. Some a bit less, some a bit more, again, its a barrel issue as well to determine velocity.

Anytime your ready for the 270 Allen Mag just let me know. I am right in the middle of load development for the new full length version of the 270 AM and so far I am thinking this will be the one I go with. It is an impressive round.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Tho,

Would like to see your pics, post them!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[budlight]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to have a lightweight rifle capable of taking out varmints and deet on Powerlines, fields, gaslines here in N.C. As far as caliber goes, those 270wsm or 7mm wsm sound good. A 280 AI is a possible. A 7mm/08 with the Hornady high power rounds. or some wicked 25 caliber would all work. Would a stock 25/06 do the job on yoyes and deer to 500 yards reliably? Can anybody suggest something "fun" I know I do not want to go above 140 gr 7 nn bullit. Any thoughts if you were in my shoes. I already have a .270 (A-Bolt)that shoots marble size groups, but I want a change. Does the.257 Weatherby shoot tight groups? Will want to do all this on a 700 Rem action

[/ QUOTE ]

since you already have a 270 why not try some kind of 26 - 28 inch barreled 6mm or 6.5 The wild cat rounds like the 6mm-06 or 6.5 - 06 Design your gun for the intended bullet weight and game. fast 6mm 100's and 105's are deadly out to 400 in sub 300 lbs animals I always take a second gun in a hard case out hunting in the truck. Here is a nice 87gr load.

Bullet Hornady V-Max
BulletWeight 87 grs
Powder Hodgdon H4831SC
PowderWeight 56 grs
Primer CCI 250
Brass Make Remington
Barrel Length 28 (inches)
C.O.L 3.151 (inches)
Velocity 3520 fps
Group (inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date 1/26/2004 2:15:00 PM
Submitted By Butch Gossett
Gun Info
Comment Extremely accurate, sub 1/4"groups


To these guys on the discussion about 7mm STW I have a wildcat that was made before the factory and the case holds @6 more grains of powder. The shoulder is steeper with a longer case body. I have never tried 140's because of my 1-9 twist 28 inch barrel. It shoots the 168 & 175 spbt's

 

[brianwinzor]

nomosendero, As ususal I agree with Fifty's comments, and if you are getting those velocities then stick with the 25/06, as I am only getting those velocities in the newer and second of my 25/06 AI rifles.

I currently own two 25/06 AI, rifles, and each was a standard 25/06 for about 200 shots before having the barrel set back and rechambered to the 25/06 AI, and both have 24 inch barrels.

Typically I have found that in a 24 inch barrel a 25/06 AI will get between 3550 - 3600 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3250 and 3300 with the 115 - 120 grain bullets. You probably could add another 50 fps to those figures if using a 26 inch barrel.

Like Fifty, I would also add a note of caution about your pressures and the case life. Initially in my rifle 1, when working up loads in the 25/06, I achieved 3418 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3163 fps with the 120 grain bullet, found that neither was sustainable as primer pockets loosend within 3 or 4 shots. So I dropped the loads by 1 grain, and settled on velocities of around 3325 -3350 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3075 - 3100 with the 120 grain bullet, and found that cases now lasted 6 - 10 shots.

Similarly in the same rifle in 25/06 AI when working up loads, intially I settled on using 61.0 grains of IMR 4831 with the Nosler 100 grain BT, and was consistently geting about 3650 - 3675 fps (3733 on 1 day) with excellent accuracy. However, and probably not surprisingly primer pockets opened up after 3 -4 shots, so I dropped the loads back 1.0 grain (60.0) and found that I was now getting 3,550 - 3575 fps, with much improved case life.

Similarly when using the Nosler 120 grain SPBT, initially I was getting 3375 - 3400 fps and acceptable accuracy, but again primer pockets loosened and so I dropped back by 1 grain and to velocities of around 3300 fps and much improved case life.

Eighteen years later when working up loads in rifle 2, I have found that maximum load for 100 grain bullet produced 3325 fps in the 25/06 and 3550 in the 25/06 AI. I did not test the 115 - 120 grain bullets as a 25/06 in this rifle, but 63.5 - 64.0 grains (100% loading density) of H1000 or Viht N170 will produce with excellent accuracy (sub 0.5moa) between 3250 and 3300 fps depending on the temperature.

Good luck with your 25/06, and just closely monitor the pressures and case life. Brian.

 

[mmmbucks]

ok,enough teasing,,,question I'm in edmonton alberta, canada now how can I get a 257 allen mag?

 

[Fiftydriver]

mmmbucks,

As you know I have been working with Richard Graves of Wildcat Bullets on these Allen Magnums. He said he knew of an importer we may be able to use if Canadian customers wanted the Allen Magnums rifles.

If your serious about the ultimate 257 round, let me know and Richard and I will look into this importer/exporter more and see what we can do. If you want one we will get you one I assure you. Just have to jump through the hoops if you will.

An interesting little story, I was out testing my 257 and 270 Allen Mags today at 500 yards. Getting load data and and zeroing teh rifles as I plan on trying to hammer some yotes this weekend at extended range with these rifles.

Anyway, I got finished with the range session and I was cleaning up the target board when I noticed a rock I had used before as a plinking target for customers to try to hit at 500 yards. I use this rock because it is roughly the same size as a prairie dog when set on edge with its face 90 degrees to the shooter.

Anyway, this rock has been hit literally dozens of times with various varmint round. Mainly 22-250 but some 6mm-284s and even 25-06s.

The rock weights about 20 lbs and simply falls off the stand I sit it on when hit with anything so far and besides the lead smears, you would never tell it has even been hit.

Well, I wanted to see if the 257 and 270 AMs would hit this 3"x7" target at 500 yards with the first shot out of a cool barrel. I finished cleaning up the target board and then headed back to 500 yards to see if I could shoot these hot rods well enough to score a first shot kill at 500 yards on a target this size.

First up was the 257 Allen loaded with the 156 gr ULD Rebated Boattail loaded to a very mild 3200 fps. These were loaded in virgin brass and were basically fireforming loads.

On 14x the rock was a clear target. I leveled the bubble in the ScopeLevel and allows jsut slightly for the wind coming from right to left. When I say I allow for the wind, I aimed about 1.5" into it. The wind was sub 5 mph but noticable.

I held dead on and at the sear release, that 20 lb rock popped like it was nothign mroe then a 20 lb water Balloon!!! The Holland QD allowed me to watch the bullet land dead center on the rock and it totally destroyed it. Not just knocking the front part off, the total rock was pulverized into gravel. This reminded me more of the performance from the big 300 magnums then anything.

Again, I had hammered this rock with my personal 25-06 loaded with 100 gr Ballistic Tips to 3500 fps and all it did was knock the rock off the birm and leave a slight lead smear. I was impressed.

In no way am I saying this is a representation on how this round and bullet will perform on big game, but I will say that it had enough velocity, energy and bullet integrity to win the battle with that 20 lb rock. I have no worries that any ethical shot on a Northern Whitetail will be a piece of cake for this round bullet combo.

Don't know if the 270 would hit on first shot, need to find another rock I suppose /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif!!

Let me know.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Buffalobob]

As mentioned above, a fast 24 is lots of fun. Lots of good bullets. Enough energy to 500+ yards for deer. Low recoil.
If you do not mind the cost of premium gas when you buy a vette then you will probably not mind the cost of weatherby brass for a 240 wby. So far the 240 wby brass seems to hold up better than the larger wby cases or maybe I just no longer squeeze the last fps out of my bullets. Try this = M98 action, douglas barrel, timmney trigger, fajen stock leopold VXIII 3.5X10. Some days I wish I had a 4X12 scope and some days a 2X7 but no days when I wish for a different caliber for what you are talking about- shooting deer crows , chucks, stupid snakes on a rock and other stuff out to 500yards.

As far as the 25's, my brothers Steyr in 257Wby with only trivial work with handloads would go sub MOA. Nothing wrong with a 25-06. They load up easy and shoot good and kill deer and antelopes like nobodies business.

 

[mmmbucks]

hey fifty, thanks for getting back to me, yes I'm very interested I would like to get as much info on the caliber from you as I can,, ballistics,actions(type?)gun weight, barrel length, type of barrels,triggers,etc.
alsothe availability of brass,dies etc.
Bottom line I'm looking for something different(caliber wise), I own 25-06,257 weatherby,270,tons of the 300s from the standard 300win mag to the lazzeroni warbird and more, but my goal for the tons of range shooting but the unbelievable amount of hunting I do is having the flattest bullet I can get,,,why people ask,,, mainly because of the hunting I do many times have no time to range just shoot and the warbird helped drop my secound whitetail over 200 this last year!! he was at 538meters and didn't take another step!! had lots of luck but if I can increase my odds more,great. Ideally a light weight gun with great ballistics the better you can email me at [email protected]
thanks

 

[Fiftydriver]

E-Mail on the way.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Ackman]

When you start talking about "ultimate", everyone has their own ideas about what's best. Depends on your criteria. I've known Keith Candler for many years and what he's said is exactly right. He knows what he's talking about, and he's also not trying to peddle anything.

Both my .257Wby's were done with Keith's reamer. Keith shoots South Carolina deer with the .257 and they've been very effective. Mine were built not for deer, but for rockchucks. One gun uses a single-shot Savage action and a braked Hart 30" barrel. It shoots 100gr bullets right at 4,000fps. I very seldom shoot paper except during load workup - 100gr Sierras, both the #1625GK and #1628Match, produced 3 shot groups in the low to mid .2's. Groups with Ballistic tip 100's are up around 1/2". The load is 71.5-72.0/RL22. IMR 4831 also works well. The #2 gun has a Douglas #5 barrel chambered with that reamer and uses a Savage repeater action. I haven't done much load work or used a chrono, but so far it looks to prefer BT's over Sierra's.

The .257Wby can be an amazing cartridge if done right. No freebore....a 100gr bullet seats right about to the base of the neck. Close neck dimensions....chamber neck is .283" and loaded PMC brass is consistent at .281". And PMC brass, which as Keith said is a good bit stronger than other brands. One thing he didn't mention is the shorter chamber neck, so that factory seated ammunition can't be chambered - this means cases need to be trimmed about .050". It also means that bullets near the lands seat further down the neck. Altogether it works very well. I suspect that the Weatherby double radius shoulder and neck might also be a performance enhancer. Whether all this makes it an "ultimate"? Who knows, and who cares? It's a good cartridge that gives really impressive performance.