ultimate firearms ml or the new remington uml

[slewis12]

Well I'm in the market for a new muzzle loader finally after 12 years I'm going to replace my stolen knight muzzle loader. I'm trying to figure out which one will suit me the best i have custom and factory rifles so its not a money issue its more of a,do i really have to spend 2500 on a muzzle loader or will the remington do what i want. I would like some factual info i consider my self a pretty good shooter to 600 yards with a rifle but more or less will be using it in shotgun zone in michigan during regular firearm season and problably wont shoot more than 350 yards. So tell me what you guys think?

 

[ENCORE]

Well I'm in the market for a new muzzle loader finally after 12 years I'm going to replace my stolen knight muzzle loader. I'm trying to figure out which one will suit me the best i have custom and factory rifles so its not a money issue its more of a is it do i really have to spend 2500 on a muzzle loader or will the remington do what i want. I would like some factual info i consider my self a pretty good shooter to 600 yards with a rifle but more or less will be using it in shotgun zone in michigan during regular firearm season and problably wont shoot more than 350 yards. So tell me what you guys think?

With either rifle...... plan on stepping out of the "normal" muzzleloading box.

The Remington first.............. What does anyone know about the Remington 700 Ultimate muzzleloader? Its just getting out to shooters and try as I have, I can not find any long range reports. The 100yd targets that some writers have shown, can be matched by a pre-packaged muzzleloader from Wal-Mart. That said, that doesn't mean that it may not be a longer range shooter either. I'm going to go way out on a limb here but, I don't know if new owners will put the proper optics atop it to shoot long range and get the best from the rifle. All things have yet to be sorted out with the Remington. Ed at Gilroy's in St. Johns has sold a few of the rifles and has a couple left in stock. Ed reported that he sold one to an owner of all three models of the Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifles, who I believe will most likely provide the first true long range report. Ed states he'll post any results he knows of. Remington has a bucket load of engineers and they changed up the ignition system to use a .308 case and LMRP, instead of using the .45 WM case. However the ignition systems are basically the same. The Remington production rifle should turn out to be a good shooter and has at 100yd ranges. Its exciting having a new production rifle on the market and I hope Remington does well.

The Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifle.................... The UF rifle has pretty much proven itself in the NMLRA matches and with long range harvests. UF has pretty much done all the work for the purchaser with load developments. Finding owners of the UF rifle that are not happy with the rifle, are very slim. My suspicion is that anyone who may be unhappy, is a shooter who wasn't ready to step out of the "normal" muzzleloading box. The UF rifle does do as advertised in the hands of a competent shooter.

My personal experience has been with an Ultimate Firearms BP Xpess rifle and I'm darn awful happy with it. I haven't had this much fun and excitement in a long time and muzzleloaders are all I've hunted with for years. I know Ken Johnston personally and consider him a great friend and excellent rifle builder.

My BP Xpress and my results...........


My very first 400 yard target



My best to date 400 yard target



A 300 meter gong that a CF shooter couldn't believe I could hit, then did right out of the case with the first shot



A 100 yard target I shot on my own range



I wish I could tell you more about the Remington 700 Ultimate rifle, but the reports just are not out there yet. Good luck with your decision. I'm very happy with mine.

 

[b.kleynhans]

No arguing with results like that !

 

[slewis12]

Not gonna argue with it but if i dont have to spend 2500 to get 350 yards like that than why spend that plus the wife will give me crap after the $5000 dollar custom 300rum i just built i better tone it down a bit lol until next year

 

[RandyWakeman]

Well I'm in the market for a new muzzle loader finally after 12 years I'm going to replace my stolen knight muzzle loader. I'm trying to figure out which one will suit me the best i have custom and factory rifles so its not a money issue its more of a,do i really have to spend 2500 on a muzzle loader or will the remington do what i want. I would like some factual info i consider my self a pretty good shooter to 600 yards with a rifle but more or less will be using it in shotgun zone in michigan during regular firearm season and problably wont shoot more than 350 yards. So tell me what you guys think?

These are heavier loads than I'd use, but they are certainly long range loads:

http://randywakeman.com/RemUlt110grBH209Parker.jpg

http://randywakeman.com/Parker275Blackhorn.jpg

The Remington Model 700 Ultimate laminated is selling for $750 on Gunbroker right now. That leaves a whole pile of cash left over for optics and hunting compared to lots of far more overpriced, spendy options.

 

[ENCORE]

I sold a T/C 209x50 Pro Hunter yesterday to a gent who wanted an accurate muzzleloader. He said he hadn't hunted with a muzzleloader in at least 15 years and wanted to get back into it.

After some instructions and corrections, he started right out shooting .750" groups consistently. I asked to fire the remaining pre-measured charges and proceeded to show him how accurate a T/C Pro Hunter and factory barrel can be at 100 yards. I shot a .375" group. He's a happy owner of a very accurate T/C Pro Hunter, which is very capable of .750" groups at 200 yards, IF the shooter is having a good day. He took home the targets, or I'd certainly post photos.

T/C Pro Hunter
75grs WEIGHT BH209 (107grs volume)
CCI209M primers
Barnes 250gr TMZ bullets

 

[b.kleynhans]

I would a happy myself with a gun shooting .375" groups ! My most accurate muzzleloader will put 3 shots in .5" from 110 yards .....with PRB

 

[ENCORE]

I would a happy myself with a gun shooting .375" groups ! My most accurate muzzleloader will put 3 shots in .5" from 110 yards .....with PRB

Sooooooo many muzzleloaders are capable of really tight groups at the 100yd mark and actually, just about all of them with the right combination and shooter. Guys are spending around $500 for the CVA Accura V2 and shooting less than 1" groups with them every day. I have a friend with a CVA Accura, not the V2, and he can shoot 3/4" groups all day long at 100yds. If a rifle claims long range accuracy, then they should show long range accuracy targets IMO.

I'm not trashing the RU, I just want to see it live up to all the hype. I've been looking for, yet can't find any long range reports. If I find any, I'll post the links.

 

[RandyWakeman]

I'm not trashing the RU

Of course you are, you haven't done much of anything else. Does it really bother you that much? Nick Stevens of Farmington, NM, has already shot 3 inch groups at 500 yards with the Remington 700 Ultimate he bought, with with 110 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 (about 157 grains volume) pushing a 275 grain Parker Ballistic Extreme @ 2390 fps.

The Michigan Ultimate has been an overpriced headache for many, many years: The Michigan Not So Ultimate BP Xpress Rifle .

If money is no object, the industry-leader right now is Gunwerks. The LRM-500 Gunwerks muzzleloader shoots smokeless or Blackhorn 209, and has taken pronghorn at 715 yards: Gunwerks - MuzzleLoader .

Gunwerks takes it a step farther, for with the gseven - G7 BR2 rangefinder barometric pressure is taken into consideration as well as incline. If you've got the cash and want to fly first class, Gunwerks has the best tools for the job.

But, at $750 or so right now on Gunbroker, the Remington 700 Ultimate is a screaming deal, less dollars than an Encore Pro Hunter XT Stainless Steel with a Tupperware stock, less than many Knights, and with greater capability. At $750, there is a big pile of money left over for optics, a Timney trigger, hand bedding, as far as you wish to take it.

 

[ENCORE]

Of course you are, you haven't done much of anything else. Does it really bother you that much? Nick Stevens of Farmington, NM, has already shot 3 inch groups at 500 yards with the Remington 700 Ultimate he bought, with with 110 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 (about 157 grains volume) pushing a 275 grain Parker Ballistic Extreme @ 2390 fps.

The Michigan Ultimate has been an overpriced headache for many, many years: The Michigan Not So Ultimate BP Xpress Rifle ............. But, at $750 or so right now on Gunbroker, the Remington 700 Ultimate is a screaming deal, less dollars than an Encore Pro Hunter XT Stainless Steel with a Tupperware stock, less than many Knights, and with greater capability. At $750, there is a big pile of money left over for optics, a Timney trigger, hand bedding, as far as you wish to take it.

Other than asking legit questions which YOU have refused to answer on many forums AND NOT JUST FROM ME, where's the bashing in that? You continuously evade and refuse to answer questions shooters need to know. Shooters and prospective buyers want to see the targets not hear about them. The 100 yard targets you've been posting, as I've said many times, can be matched by a pre-packaged rifle from Wal-Mart, much cheaper than the RU, UF, or Pro Hunter.

I've stated in many posts and many forums that I want to see the Remington do well AND, that I'm excited about a new production muzzleloader hitting the market. What part of that can't you get a grasp on? Its more obvious you've overlooked that, only to continue your bashing of the Ultimate Firearms rifle, a rifle you've never owned and couldn't get for free.

Here's another legit question, has the shooter you mentioned in your post, posted his targets and results where shooters can review them and his 500yd 3" groups?

Another..... Being that you brought up Precision Rifle, I noticed you left out Jim Scott's article about his shooting a 1.25" 500 yard group with a Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifle. The reason being?

I'm not an expert shooter, gunsmith, nor am I a writer. However I bought an Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifle just a few months ago and am more than willing to post my long range targets (after six -6- eye surgeries). I know from my personal hands on experience with the UF rifle, your writing so much negativity about it is simply BS. My personal rifle does exactly as advertised. I know other owners who will also say the same.

I'll say it again and do it in bold, so maybe you'll recognize it. I'm very excited about a new muzzleloader hitting the market. I hope Remington does well.

 

[RandyWakeman]

I'm very excited about a new muzzleloader hitting the market. I hope Remington does well.

Good for you. What's your excuse for not owning one?

 

[ENCORE]

Good for you. What's your excuse for not owning one?

Because I own better rifles.

 

[slewis12]

I had hoped for a better outcome than this it wasn't meant to turn it into a debacle but I have researched both rifles and talked to ken at ultimate firearms and being a engineer I like to have concrete facts from what I have learned to date is Remington paid for patent licensing for the breach plug and improved the design and when I say improve lrm primers are not meant to fit into hand gun cases so repriming 45 cases possibly could be a issue not saying they are but could be which isn't that big of a deal if you have time to mess with them 308 cut brass easy to deal with for me as I reload I imagine I can see if any of my dies could simply pop the primer out so I might not even need a 308 die the gun them selves Remington has good factory rifle with the occasional crap one I know I've had one of the bad ones 270wsm that wouldn't shoot any thing barrel wasn't free floated correctly and action was loose in the stock but how often is that a occurring not that much so in turn a ultimate was the first to develop this setup with some quality components the barrel the action the stocks Encore I have no doubt ultimate makes a fine setup but your breach plug issue for me is a pause for concern in the fact that he had to drill the plug out so if it was gas cutting a form of erosion why wouldn't it do that with any other powder a fire in the hole under pressure is a fire in the hole under pressure doesn't mean that another powder can't do the same looking over some data the you can duplicate the pressures with other powder/pellets now quality of the barrel the uf rifle has a very nice barrel the Remington well has a factory Remington which in some cases is better than moa in others slightly more so it all comes down to how far does a guy competently shoot with enough down range energy for a ethical kill for me my cut off would be 350 as the energy will be roughly 1200 lbs give or take a small amount but any thing less than 1000 lbs to me isn't the greatest idea if I hit bone I want break it and have enough to do some additional damage both rifles are capable weapons the question resides in if I order a Remington do I get a good one sub moa or moa or do I get that Sunday shift one that shoots like crap and how often do they produce one like that I would hope they hold the same standard on this as their rifles not often but 1 out of 100 maybe so can I justify 2500 one time purchase or can I take my chances and worst case spend some money on gunsmithing if it shoots like crap and still be below 2500 hundred and achieve the goal set forth I think I'll be passing on this years ml season to see what the result will hold for quality control and in the field results for the Remington to make a more informed decision but my gut says either way will be good but does the wallet need punished for bragging rights that I spent 2500 when I could have possibly spent 750 to 1000 and achieved the same goal time will tell and more reviews from in the field will provide the info on what the Remington is capable of consider its a factory duplicate of the UF ML

 

[ENCORE]

..............Encore I have no doubt ultimate makes a fine setup but your breach plug issue for me is a pause for concern.......

I don't know if you asked Ken or not but, replacing a breech plug in one of his rifles is a rarity. If I'm not mistaken, Randy has over 10,000 shots through the same breech plug in his rifle. There's no way even a Pro Hunter can get that many shots without the flash hole eroding. I could only get about 400 rounds through mine before the groups would open up and I'd have to replace it. As I understand it those UF plugs that needed replacement, all were shot with BH209. I've shot BH209 since it became available and HIGHLY support that propellant. However it didn't work out and hasn't for others shooting the UF rifles.

I have very strong suspicions as to why my breech plug cut and it was totally my fault. I'd bet a Cola on it. I shoot like a mad man and if I don't have obligations of some kind, I'm most likely shooting, either here a home or at the club. What I believe I did, was to re-prime and shoot the same cases to many times. Regardless of rather its the RU or the UF rifles, they both compress the case on a nipple via the bolt. That compression has to be tight, or it will allow gas to escape. This is the reason that BOTH the RU and UF manufacturers have a suggested limit with how many times you can re-prime the brass. Regardless, there is a maximum about of times that you can close that bolt on the brass and obtain the proper seal without the brass collapsing. Rather its the steel used in the UF or the RU, ask some of the top custom muzzleloader builders in America, 416 steel WILL gas cut if the gas is allowed to escape. It is critical that the case seals. It was entirely my fault IMO, as I re-primed cases when I shouldn't have and continued shooting.

I learned a big lesson there and now have at minimum 1,000 new cases. Each case will be fired one time, de-primed and the primer pockets brushed. Then they go into a container marked as "once fired". After the second time of re-priming, they'll each be thoroughly inspected. Any of them re-primed the third time and shot will be discarded. My intent is to order another thousand.

The brass and its seal will dictate how many times a .308 case can be re-primed in the RU. Those who do as I did, will be replacing breech plugs in the RU also.

Good luck with your decision.