Trying to find accuracy in a 45-70 405 Gr Bullet with 4198 powder.

bpcrshooter

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Jan 29, 2017
Messages
308
Location
Madison, Wi
If your shooting lead bullets without lube/coatings your going to lead your barrel. You can also change to a gas check bullets that will help with gas cutting and in turn....leading and poor accuracy. Plain base bullets are typically reserved for low pressure/BP loadings, just like pistol, when you get to magnum status, its time to get gas checks. I have shot thousands of 405's out of my Marling CB and best was around 1800fps, but I mostly shoot around 1350fps. If your buying bullets, they are typically "hard" and if undersized will allow hot gasses to go by....back to that leading thing again. If it were me and it was at one point, I would buy a RCBS 405GC RNFP mold, cast them out of Lyman #2 (if you want to hunt with it go softer), lube them in a Lubersizer to .459 and use Felix lube. 4198 is an excellent powder for the 45-70, I believe your problems are stemming from, not having lube and gas cutting (leading).
20210127_152315.jpg
This is what ive used in my lever guns, sharps for hunting, BFR pistol. It works very well

Matt
 

Les in Wyoming

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Oct 10, 2020
Messages
114
Location
Glenrock, Wyoming
If your shooting lead bullets without lube/coatings your going to lead your barrel. You can also change to a gas check bullets that will help with gas cutting and in turn....leading and poor accuracy. Plain base bullets are typically reserved for low pressure/BP loadings, just like pistol, when you get to magnum status, its time to get gas checks. I have shot thousands of 405's out of my Marling CB and best was around 1800fps, but I mostly shoot around 1350fps. If your buying bullets, they are typically "hard" and if undersized will allow hot gasses to go by....back to that leading thing again. If it were me and it was at one point, I would buy a RCBS 405GC RNFP mold, cast them out of Lyman #2 (if you want to hunt with it go softer), lube them in a Lubersizer to .459 and use Felix lube. 4198 is an excellent powder for the 45-70, I believe your problems are stemming from, not having lube and gas cutting (leading).
View attachment 245999
This is what ive used in my lever guns, sharps for hunting, BFR pistol. It works very well

Matt
Thanks. This thing about lead bullets is really new for me. I have been looking for dies but they cannot be bought at this time.

The bullets I am using have a blue ring on them, which I assume to be a wax or something. There is nothing else on them other than that blue ring. I just bought some of that hi-tech coating and while I am waiting for it to get here, I went to Harbor Freight and bought some coating. At this moment, I have no earthly idea what to do with it, but will know after seeing some YouTube videos.

The Polymer coated bullets I have that shoot well are only .457. Apparently it is the coating the helps.
 

Les in Wyoming

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114
Location
Glenrock, Wyoming
OK, I have just watched some videos on powder coating. I have some questions.

1) Is it ok to coat with that wax ring in the bullet filled?
2) Is it possible to increase the diameter of the bullet with coating?
3) Does anyone here prefer wet coating vs dry coating? I have seen were a guy puts a bit of acetone in the mix and shakes it up then bakes it. I have a tumbler and can dry coat. Which is better?
 

jfloyd

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Nov 20, 2013
Messages
90
Location
Orlando
OK, I have just watched some videos on powder coating. I have some questions.

1) Is it ok to coat with that wax ring in the bullet filled?
2) Is it possible to increase the diameter of the bullet with coating?
3) Does anyone here prefer wet coating vs dry coating? I have seen were a guy puts a bit of acetone in the mix and shakes it up then bakes it. I have a tumbler and can dry coat. Which is better?
I can only answer one of these but I’m sure others will chime in. The blue ring is lube and will have to be removed for the coating to stick.
 

mnoland30

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Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
237
If your problem is undersized bullets, you might try paper patching them. You Tube has lots of videos on that. Idaholewis has some good videos showing how it is done. Frank Meyer was a buffalo hunter shooting a Sharps 45-120, and would paper patch his bullets. I like the idea, because it eliminates leading, so you can shoot softer bullets, which is what I want for hunting.
 

bpcrshooter

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Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
308
Location
Madison, Wi
Thanks. This thing about lead bullets is really new for me. I have been looking for dies but they cannot be bought at this time.

The bullets I am using have a blue ring on them, which I assume to be a wax or something. There is nothing else on them other than that blue ring. I just bought some of that hi-tech coating and while I am waiting for it to get here, I went to Harbor Freight and bought some coating. At this moment, I have no earthly idea what to do with it, but will know after seeing some YouTube videos.

The Polymer coated bullets I have that shoot well are only .457. Apparently it is the coating the helps.
That blue ring is lube, most likely Thompson's blue angel lube. It a hard lube 80% designed to stay in place during shipping 20% to actually lube your barrel. IMHO, its junk! There are way better lubes out there but you would have to either buy or make them. Then there is the lubersizer to apply said lube, unless you do it by hand but, that would be ridiculous. The coating route is a good way to go too, its not as traditional but it does work. If you start making your own bullets you can make them softer, like 30-1 and then coat them for hunting purposes. Paper patching is another route you can take, there are 3 different styles to choose from, Bore dia, groove dia and dual dia. There is a bit of work to get all the components for PPing bullets but they sure are cool looking!! I use the DDPP bullets for my Shiloh and shoot 1k with them, there is a reason behind bullets design. Ebay has a few sets of dies available, I have the RCBS and Lyman ones both work well.

matt
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2020
Messages
10
Location
Illinois
That may be the ticket. They are not lubed. I have scrubbed my barrel with copper killer. Where can I get some coating for these bullets?
I use a lyman lubrisizer with a 459 di. You can get lube from most supply outfits such as midway.
You can also do the pan method. Melt the lube, stand the boolits upright in the liquid lube, let cool. Then clean them off. The lube should stay in the grooves where it belongs.
 

Les in Wyoming

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Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
114
Location
Glenrock, Wyoming
Here are the pics of the bullets. The one on the left is the polymer coated. It seems to shoot ok. The one on the right will fly anywhere with little regard to where it is pointed. Measuring the diameter at the bottom of each bullet with a micrometer, they both measure .4585. The package says .458.
 

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warboar21

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Feb 2, 2015
Messages
123
Location
Southwest
OK, I have just watched some videos on powder coating. I have some questions.

1) Is it ok to coat with that wax ring in the bullet filled?
2) Is it possible to increase the diameter of the bullet with coating?
3) Does anyone here prefer wet coating vs dry coating? I have seen were a guy puts a bit of acetone in the mix and shakes it up then bakes it. I have a tumbler and can dry coat. Which is better?
The blue ring is Lube. Many manufacturers use a very hard wax lube that does a so so job when it comes to lube.
To answer your questions:
1. You can not coat the bullet with powder coating with the lube. You will have to heat the bullets in an oven to 400 degrees so the wax will melt off and run.

2. You will certainly increase the diameter of the bullet by coating. You can see as much as .002-.003 increase in diameter.

3. I have only used the Harbor Freight powder coating and applied it dry. The way I apply it is to clean the bullets with acetone or mineral spirits, let them dry, then use a round plastic cool whip container filled with airsoft bb's and approx. 2 tbsp of the powder. Add the bullets and then swirl them around creating static electricity with the plastic on plastic rubbing. I pull the bullets from the bowl with a pair of long needle nose pliers or hemostats and place them on a small cookie sheet covered with non stick Aluminum foil. I preheat a cheap toaster over I bought from goodwill to 400 degrees and then put the tray in and bake them for 15 mins or so or until they reach 400 degrees.
I then pull the tray out and let them cool down.

If all this seems more than what you want to do then you can also buy some Lee Liquid Alox.

This is pretty easy to apply and you don't need to go out and buy a toaster oven. I use this for a lot of my handgun bullets as well. I like to add some mineral spirits and cut it down. A little bit of this goes a long way. This mixed with the factory lube does a great job.
 

Les in Wyoming

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Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
114
Location
Glenrock, Wyoming
I have gotten some good info here. But the thing about using Harbor Freight powder coat is evidently a gag. Fell for it. I don't quite get it though.
I have read elsewhere that you can buy their powder, put some in a tumbler with your bullets and after 20 minutes or so, they come out coated and ready to bake. So I bought some. They had black and white. I bought black. I cleaned about 10 of them with mineral spirits and put them in the tumbler with plenty of powder. After an hour, it only created a mess but didn't stick to any of them. So I went back to HF and bought the white. I was thinking either the black doesn't work or I am stupid for falling for it again. It was the latter. I just don't understand why the joke. I am only out $15, so whatever. I guess I can at least warn others it is a gag or something. This stuff does not stick to lead at all.

I am waiting for the hi-tek polymer to get here. I hope that is for real.
 

WHITEBULL

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Apr 26, 2015
Messages
112
I don't think anyone was setting you up. Chances are the lead projectiles were not lubricant free. I have a few lbs of Harbor freight powder and it works just fine. But, I use it on freshly cast projectiles. I never have tried to use any powder on projectiles that had the lubricant removed. Chances are they were not lubricant free. At this point, I would scrap these, sell them, and start over. But don't give up! Reloading is a great hobby!
 

warboar21

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Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
123
Location
Southwest
I have gotten some good info here. But the thing about using Harbor Freight powder coat is evidently a gag. Fell for it. I don't quite get it though.
I have read elsewhere that you can buy their powder, put some in a tumbler with your bullets and after 20 minutes or so, they come out coated and ready to bake. So I bought some. They had black and white. I bought black. I cleaned about 10 of them with mineral spirits and put them in the tumbler with plenty of powder. After an hour, it only created a mess but didn't stick to any of them. So I went back to HF and bought the white. I was thinking either the black doesn't work or I am stupid for falling for it again. It was the latter. I just don't understand why the joke. I am only out $15, so whatever. I guess I can at least warn others it is a gag or something. This stuff does not stick to lead at all.

I am waiting for the hi-tek polymer to get here. I hope that is for real.
Were you using air soft bbs like I detailed in an earlier post? You have to create a static charge in order for the powder to properly stick.
I have never had any issues powder coating thousands of bullets the way I described above.
 

Les in Wyoming

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Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
114
Location
Glenrock, Wyoming
Were you using air soft bbs like I detailed in an earlier post? You have to create a static charge in order for the powder to properly stick.
I have never had any issues powder coating thousands of bullets the way I described above.
I just got the hi-tek polymer coating and began to read the directions. This looks like a far more detailed operation that I was hoping. As I read the instructions, it stressed how clean the lead bullets need to be. So I first melted the wax ring off with a heat gun and then soaked them in acetone, wiping them off and then soaking them again to get rid of the residue film that might coat them. But then I thought of trying the powder coat again. Perhaps my bullets were just not clean enough. I followed your instructions and put some air soft bb's in it. The powder seemed to take. At least better than before. My first attempts, it did not take at all whatsoever. I am using white. It at least turned the bullets gray. So I cooked them and then ran them through the tumbler again. The second coat did not seem to make them much whiter - if any at all. But anyway, they did take some coating. Now, I am wondering about lubricating them. I don't have a lubra-sizer and cannot find one. So, will this coating be enough to keep it from leading the barrel or do I need to coat the bullets? Should I find a way to fill the wax ring or just coat them with allox? I don't know how fast these 405 gr. bullets are going yet. I am pushing these with 42.5 grains of IMR 4198. They are going faster than cowboy loads. BTW, I just found on the label of these bullets a "CB" in the description. Evidently they are for cowboy loads. I am guessing they are too soft for the speed I want to push them. I am hoping this coating will alleviate this issue. I cannot find bullets anywhere.
 

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