Totally Over My Head

[trebark]

slafav:
You're in trouble! After shooting that kind of hardware, you're going to need a part time job to finance the level of addiction to which you have been exposed. Enjoy it!

 

[bwaites]

I'm surprised at a lot of the advice offered here, which goes to show that different strokes for different folks!

For a newbie wanting to shoot at long range, the .308 really has a lot of advantages, and some of the members really have given better evaluations than I would have put into it. Simply put, the .308 wins hands down for the kind of hunting and possible long range shooting the OP is talking about.

The .308 can be shot in FT/R, or F Open if you want. All the other reasonable calibers can only shoot F Open. There is a TON of ballistic data and loads for the .308, and something like 100 different factory loadings available to try if you don't reload!

That 6.5-284 is an awesome long range gun, but they eat barrels like breakfast, so you can count on replacing one every 1000-2000 rounds. The .308 can go 5000 or more if you don't get crazy and load hot.

Recoil is subjective. I have no problem shooting 100 or more rounds in one day from my 7mm WSM, but others might not be happy with 10. I've never been sore from it, but it isn't a load that my friend who is a world class FT/R shooter really enjoys.

Get a good .308, either Remington, Savage, etc. Get a good tripod and some bags, and get to work learning. The .308 is a great teacher, and you will love shooting it every minute.

My only advice regarding scopes is this: Buy the very best you can afford. I would recommend saving your money for a Nightforce or upper level Leupold. Otherwise you'll wish you had, because when you get out there to 700 or 800 or 1000 yards, poor glass will just frustrate you.

Bill

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I'm surprised at a lot of the advice offered here, which goes to show that different strokes for different folks!

For a newbie wanting to shoot at long range, the .308 really has a lot of advantages, and some of the members really have given better evaluations than I would have put into it. Simply put, the .308 wins hands down for the kind of hunting and possible long range shooting the OP is talking about.

The .308 can be shot in FT/R, or F Open if you want. All the other reasonable calibers can only shoot F Open. There is a TON of ballistic data and loads for the .308, and something like 100 different factory loadings available to try if you don't reload!

I am curious why you are surprised at the different advice? We all come at this from our own personal perspectives and place different wieghts on different priorities. Like you say... different strokes for different folks.

I sure dont mean any offense but in my book, not only does the 308 not win hands down, it comes in close to last for distance shooting. I say that because I look at the question from a purely ballistic point of view. Once you get past 500 yds there are numerous cartrides from the 264 WM up to the big 338's that leave it well behind. There is no real debate about that. The math and the physics speaks for itself. It's hard to argue with velocity and BC.

Now if you say that the 308 wins because there is lots of data, or that it has better barrel life, or there is more factory ammo for it, or it has relatively mild recoil then that is a strong case. But if you look at it purely from ballistics, it comes up short.

Can it do what the OP wants? Yep. Can it do it best? IME... no....

-MR

 

[bwaites]

I am curious why you are surprised at the different advice? We all come at this from our own personal perspectives and place different wieghts on different priorities. Like you say... different strokes for different folks.

I sure dont mean any offense but in my book, not only does the 308 not win hands down, it comes in close to last for distance shooting. I say that because I look at the question from a purely ballistic point of view. Once you get past 500 yds there are numerous cartrides from the 264 WM up to the big 338's that leave it well behind. There is no real debate about that. The math and the physics speaks for itself. It's hard to argue with velocity and BC.

Now if you say that the 308 wins because there is lots of data, or that it has better barrel life, or there is more factory ammo for it, or it has relatively mild recoil then that is a strong case. But if you look at it purely from ballistics, it comes up short.

Can it do what the OP wants? Yep. Can it do it best? IME... no....

-MR

Can it do what the OP WANTS best is the question!

NOTE: I do not own a .308, and never have. I'm an oddball guy, if other guys are using it, I want something different. My two long range rifles are a 6.5 Grendel and a 7mm WSM.

I stated in a previous post that other rounds did it better at distance, but if you want a gun light enough to hunt with, plus a cartridge capable of taking a deer at 400 yards, plus a rifle that will get to 1000, plus a rifle that a newbie at long range shooting can learn with, it is almost impossible to beat the .308.

You can buy one from many different manufacturers that is capable of competing in long range shooting, is cost effective to buy, is cost effective to shoot, and has low enough recoil to do so and allow for lots of practice.

Can any other round actually do all that?

Positives:

Inexpensive
Widely available ammunition loaded with at least 100 different loads
Ammo available anywhere ammo is sold. (Ever been anywhere they sold rifle ammo and didn't stock .308?) .22 is probably the only more available ammo!
Lots of gun manufacturers
Lots of accurate rifles available
Innumerable stocks and triggers available
Very long barrel life
Widest available reloading information. There may be more on the .308 than all others combined!
Very reasonable recoil for results.

I can't think of a single caliber that has all those advantages.

Can it compete with the 6.5-284 (or others) at 1000 yards? Not in the hands of equally competent shooters, but it will get there and get there with reasonable dispatch.

But can it do that, and then turn around and be a great plinker, coyote killer, deer killer, and fill a dozen other needs? YEP!

Name another round that gives all those things and does it at the cost that the .308 can!

Will it do it at half or less than the cost per round of all those other cool calibers? Yep, it will do that too!

At least in my book, to do what the OP states, it wins hands down!

Bill

 

[X3MHunter]

Montana,

Perhaps you think the caliber makes the hunter. The 308 is more than capable of competing with any of those calibers that you say "leave it well behind"

There are tons of people with 308's that will beat guys with magnums in a shootoff to 1000 yards, hands down. My point being is that if you shoot only one caliber and you shoot it enough you will become very good with it, even if it drifts a little more than others. As far as drop, well, that's constant. Once you have to turn you know to compensate for drop it doesn't matter if it drops 15 MOA or 12 MOA because it just means you will turn you know a little more, which is pretty easy to do.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if he has a rifle that he can afford to go and shoot on a regular basis he will become a better shot than somebody with a 338 Win. Mag. that only shoots occasionally because of the cost of ammo and the punishment they endure while practicing.

To me relying on ballistics to be a better long range shooter makes as much sense as using a lifesaver to be a better swimmer, it does not work that way, you have to learn the basics!

X3M

 

[novaman64]

For a low recoil affordable to shoot round that will reach out to 1000 on paper and take deer at around 400 yrds I still think a 243 or a 260 would be a great choice. They are based off 308 brass so its plentiful and cheap, burn less powder, have amazing BC and have velocity all over a 308.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Montana,

Perhaps you think the caliber makes the hunter.

X3M.

You totally misunderstand me. You seem to take a personal affront to my critique of the 308. Please dont. Like I siad, I have nothing against the 308. It's a great caliber.

You said, "Perhaps I think the caliber makes the hunter". If that was true then I would think the 308 is one of the greatest calibers out there. Reason being, my uncle, who taught me to hunt, was by far the greatest Pennsylvania deer hunter I know and he used a 308.

I dont say that just because he was my uncle. He got his buck almost every year in a state where the success rate averaged about 10%. Yep, only one in ten hunters got their buck, at least back in the years of my youth. Not only did he get his buck almost every year, he got very nice bucks. In those days, shooting a spike or 4 point (fork horn) was typical and shooting a 6 point (what we out West call a 3 point) was good and to get an 8 point was great. I dont ever recall him shooting less than a 6 point, and he usually shot an 8 point or better. His best buck was a 10 point that scored over 160, just shy of B&C in a state in which few bucks lived to be more than 3 years old and the hunters greatly outnumbered the deer. That buck was literally one in a million. He did this without having any "special" places to hunt, like private access to a farm etc. He hunted where everyone else did and he got the big buck. I think any PA boys who are as old as I am will verify what I am saying, that his consistant success showed he was very skillful and more than lucky. On top of that he is also a man whom I respect and look up to. On his choice of cartridge.... IMO, he choose the perfect PA deer rifle for his style of hunting which was still hunting. I'm not sure if he ever shot a deer farther than a 100 yds and most were well within 50. The 308 is a great deer round, especially within 300 yds. If I was hunting deer in PA and my shots never exceeded 300 yds, I would choose the 308 over the ballisitically superior 270 WSM. First because it makes a bigger hole and next for many of the other reasons that you and Bill have mentioned.

But I'm not a PA deer hunter anymore. Where I hunt long shots (over 300 yds) can be common and flat shooting rifles are the preference, even among the non-extreme long rangers. My original choice was the 7mm RM, to be able to make up to 500 yd shots. It was a kicker and I had little more experience than Slafav and seldom shot more than 20 rounds per outing. I found it to be very tollerable up to about 20 rounds. If I did shoot more than that, I "endured it". Since thenI have taken steps to mitigate the recoil, and I can ENJOY shooting magnum caliber rifles all day now. Let me repeat that because it seems to get over looked. I can ENJOY shooting magnum caliber rifles all day.

So, it's not about the man or woman or hunter. It's about the cartridge and the ballistics. Pure and simple. Yeah, the 308 compete's well against many cartridges in BR and F-class. But if you were to build both a 308 and a 300 WSM with the sam quality componants and use the same quality smith you probably could tell the difference in accuracy between the two. The advantage in BR shooting would belong to the WSM because of it's ability to buck wind a little beter and also shoot a heavier bullet. I can push a 210 Berger @ 2935 out of mine.

Now this site is about Long Range Hunting which is a differnt animal than BR shooting, although the two have many similarities. If we take these two the cartridges to the field for LR hunting, the 300 WSM wins hands down by a large margin....... and....... it can be a pleasant rifle to shoot...... I speak from personal experience. It really isnt that much more expensive to shoot and if you hand load the only difference in cost is the little bit of extra powder you use. As for barrel life, the 300 WSM is excellent. I read a report of a BR competiton being won with a 300 WSM that over 4000 rounds down the tube.

My intent was not to start or renew a debate on which cartridge Slafav should choose. We've already shared our opinions on that. But When Bill said "the 308 wins hands down".... well.... I just had to respond to that.

So please dont take any of this personal. I could care less what cartridge anyone shoots, but when the various topics come, hey, I'll share my $.02

If I had 10 different rifles in 10 different cartridges, none would be a 308, even though my uncle whio was the best hunter I know used one. If I had 20 rifles in 20 different cartridges, none would be a 308, simply because there are a lot of differnt cartrides I would like and in the 308 cal there would be at least 4 or 5 I would choose bferor the 308. The 308 simply does not interest me.

Good shooting to you and take care of Slafav,

Best,

-MR

 

[bwaites]

MR,

I certainly think you make some great points about there being rifles that can do some things better than the .308. I think the 7mm WSM is a better option than the .300 WSM because it shoots flatter, has bullets with better BC's, has bullets with better sectional densities, etc. BUT...

Neither one has the variety of loadings available to the .308. Both are much more expensive to shoot, (c'mon, its not just the powder, the brass is easily twice as expensive, and in real life, you can usually find great, once fired .308 brass at any range! I have a several hundred pieces I found like that! I'm not sure what I'll do with them, but they'll probably make great trade bait!)

And the available knowledge base for .308 loading is infinitely larger than those for other calibers.

Another advantage is that I've never seen a .308 that couldn't shoot at least one factory load well, (meaning sub-MOA). On the other hand, magnum loads seldom come into their own until you start handloading. My 7mm WSM won't shoot sub MOA with any factory load I've tried, though I'll admit there aren't that many of them! However, I have at least 3 handloads that it will do that with. In fact, with handloads, it is easily a 1/2 MOA rifle at 400 yards. Most Magnum owners tell me the same thing.

Go point by point in my post above, and it's difficult to tout one of the other calibers for a beginning long range shooter.

Bill

 

[AJ Peacock]

...

I sure dont mean any offense but in my book, not only does the 308 not win hands down, it comes in close to last for distance shooting. I say that because I look at the question from a purely ballistic point of view. Once you get past 500 yds there are numerous cartrides from the 264 WM up to the big 338's that leave it well behind. There is no real debate about that. The math and the physics speaks for itself. It's hard to argue with velocity and BC.

Now if you say that the 308 wins because there is lots of data, or that it has better barrel life, or there is more factory ammo for it, or it has relatively mild recoil then that is a strong case. But if you look at it purely from ballistics, it comes up short.

Can it do what the OP wants? Yep. Can it do it best? IME... no....

-MR

OK, the original poster asked the following.

"...looking for something that can kill a deer at a decent distance, say 300 - 400 yards, but mainly just want to shoot for fun..."

Looking at the ballistics of the 308win vs 300wsm out to 400yds, it is surprisingly close.

If you take a .308 and load 210 bergers to around 2500fps, sight it in at 325yds, even in a full value 10mph wind, you will always be within 10" of your aimpoint at 5000ft elevation out to 400yds.

Looking at a 300wsm loaded to around 2850fps with the same 210berger. Sighted in at 350yds, you will always hit within 7" of your aimpoint. So the 300wsm beats the 308win by 3" out to 400yds (not as much as you would think!). Is it worth rebarrelling 3 times as often? More expensive ammo? More recoil etc.???

For hunting deer to a maximum of 400yds and "mainly want to shoot for fun", a heavy barreled .308win is tough to beat. It has great barrel life, great availability of ammo, reasonable recoil etc etc etc

I love the magnums, but when you look at what the OP asked, it's tough to recommend a magnum of any type.

If we ignore what the OP asked, and extend the range to Elk hunting at 1500yds, I'd never recommend a 308win.


AJ

 

[X3MHunter]

Montana,

I agree with you that there are too many calibers ballistically superior to the 308, in fact, I don't even own a 308 and often times find myself making fun of my buddy that shoots one in F-Class FT/R telling him that he is ballistically challenged, eventhough he can really shoot it like a pro.

But for this thread alone, I think the 308 is the best possible candidate due to the fact that Slafav does not handload, if he did I would recommend a 260 which is ballistically superior to the 308. Also like I said before, he can get any rifle he likes in 308, can't say the same for any other calibers.

Also, Slafav is only looking to hunt deer at 400 yards, and you said it yourself that most of the "better" cartridges beat the 308 after 500 yards, so for that reason I think the 308 is a better cartridge for HIS needs.

My long range rifles are a 300 Win. Mag. and a 280 Ackley Improved, both of which are way better cartridges than the 308. But the reason I use these is because my expected shots could be up to 700 yards and beyond, if I knew they would be 500 and closer, my choice of calibers would be different.

Also I don't practice with them as much because of the greater cost, recoil, and barrel burning abilities. I use a 6BRX for practicing because it is cheaper, less recoil and can shoot it forever without worrying about my barrel or throat.

Anyways, I think if we were just discussing best long range cartridges you and I would be in complete agreement, but again, I don't think that's what this thread is about.

X3M

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Are there really 67 posts in this thread???

MR,

I certainly think you make some great points about there being rifles that can do some things better than the .308. I think the 7mm WSM is a better option than the .300 WSM because it shoots flatter, has bullets with better BC's, has bullets with better sectional densities, etc. BUT...

Neither one has the variety of loadings available to the .308. Both are much more expensive to shoot, (c'mon, its not just the powder, the brass is easily twice as expensive, and in real life, you can usually find great, once fired .308 brass at any range! I have a several hundred pieces I found like that! I'm not sure what I'll do with them, but they'll probably make great trade bait!)

And the available knowledge base for .308 loading is infinitely larger than those for other calibers.

Another advantage is that I've never seen a .308 that couldn't shoot at least one factory load well, (meaning sub-MOA). On the other hand, magnum loads seldom come into their own until you start handloading. My 7mm WSM won't shoot sub MOA with any factory load I've tried, though I'll admit there aren't that many of them! However, I have at least 3 handloads that it will do that with. In fact, with handloads, it is easily a 1/2 MOA rifle at 400 yards. Most Magnum owners tell me the same thing.

Go point by point in my post above, and it's difficult to tout one of the other calibers for a beginning long range shooter.

Bill

Yup, the 7WSM does shoot flatter, and it burns barrels quicker too. Tradeoff.... wich is more desirable for what reasons....

OK, point by point, and I might sound sarcastic but not really trying to be so dont git yer feathers ruffled.

Can it do what the OP WANTS best is the question!

Wha the OP wants....

-I am looking for something that can kill a deer at a decent distance, say 300 - 400 yards,

-but mainly just want to shoot for fun.

What is just shooting for fun?

-I am looking to stay under $1000 - $1500 if possible and want something that will perform reliably for a while

OK, that includes a lot of posibiliteis.

-I have heard good things about .300, .308, and 7mm mag, but don't really know the difference in ballistics, cost, availability, etc.

Actual rifle costs dont depend on caliber, they depend on rifle make and model. Factory ammo costs will vary about 10% between these mentioned cartridges. Handloading will var much less.

-I don't want to get in to reloading or anything of that nature, so I'd like to avoid calibers that require something like that.

OK, so I have to throw the flag here... forget about LR shooting if you dont want to reload. You all know durn well that Slafav is on his way to reloading so let's not even talk about factrory ammo as being a criteria for picking a rifle.

-What if I wanted to push the max distance out a bit? Say, 800 -900 yards, but not need it to be necessarily lethal? Would that be possible?

You need to reload, and once you start shooting at these distances consistantly you'll almost certainly look for oportunities to start taking game as well.

-Another question. Is it better to lay down the money in the beginning while learning the basics of drop, wind, etc or should I stay cheap in the beginning and swap out parts as I go along?

You dont have to get top end, but you do need to get quality.

-Rifle weight isn't an issue

Senderos are a player.

-what's the difference in cost between calibers

Already went over that...

Ok, so I am convinced the OP really doesn't know what he wants yet, and there's nothing wrong with that. Better for him to read through these forums for a while really think about it and THEN start making some decisions, when he KNOWS what he wants and he is SMARTER about the LR scene.

 

[bwaites]

You can get good quality, fun to shoot ammo for the .308 at about 20-30% of the cost of any mag ammo. There is lots of .308 surplus ammo available that will teach you to shoot pretty doggone well out to 3-400 yards.

You can also get quality factory match ammo for the .308, if you spend a little time figuring out what your gun likes, and are willing to spend a little time doing it.

Yep, the 7mm WSM might burn barrels out faster than the .300 WSM, but its a trade I was willing to make. I haven't proved it yet, though, only have about 300-400 rounds down this one, and 100 were at an F class match.

Bill

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Yep, the 7mm WSM might burn barrels out faster than the .300 WSM, but its a trade I was willing to make....
Bill

Exactley.... because of your priorities. Slafav doesn't know his priorities yet.....

 

[X3MHunter]

Well, since you guys are talking about barrel life, tell me which one of the two: 7 WSM or 300 WSM has better barrel life than the 308. Heck, I'll make it easy on you guys, tell me ANY caliber that has better barrel life than the 308 that can be accurate out to 1000 yards, that is fun and cheap to shoot, that ammo is available anywhere ammo is sold, and that factory match ammo is available for.

Well, looks like we've been going on for a while arguing about what caliber would work the best for Slafav. I think it's time for Slafav to tell us what ge has gathered from all of this and what he thinks about calibers and rifles at this point.

X3M