Torque Recomendations

Reason I asked:

I was faced with this back in 2004. I have a friend in the Seattle area who's an ME. He put me in contact with a colleague of his who's sole job in life is developing fasteners for airplanes.

He was kind enough to work up a full evaluation based on an assortment of fasteners I sent him. Some were from Brownells and stuff made in house.

After all sorts of testing he wrote me a full report on this.

40lbs. No more, no less. More yields the threads. Less doesn't do the job.

If it takes more than 40, something is wrong. I'd start with the stock.

The issue lies in the loading on the thread flanks. A screw is a spring for all practical purposes. Your putting the fastener under tension so that it pulls the receiver into the stock. If the load exceeds the capacity of the threads, it will yield and the tension erodes. Not necessarily all at once either. The loading also needs to deliver a sufficient amount of friction so that the fastener stays put. Especially when subjected to vibration. Surface finish has a lot to do with this too. So does the class of thread but I don't get too overly concerned with that part. It is just a dumb guard screw after all. I'd have to dig up the paper, but if memory serves me correctly, 40lbs delivers something like 1600lbs of tensile load. This loading has to be factored based on the root diameter of the fastener. To put this in simple terms. Imagine a bolt measuring an inch in outside diameter. If we were to put some sort of ridiculous pitch on it that resulted in the minor diameter measuring at a 1/2" we couldn't generate calculations based on the outside diameter. The bolt would fail. Pitch and flank angles also plays into this but that's getting really silly.

Keep in mind also that 40lbs,50, or 60 is sort of a misguided way to do this stuff. Friction will skew the desired result. A screw made from 303 series stainless is quite gummy/sticky compared to one machined from 4140 heat treat. Stainless fasteners in stainless actions only accentuates the effect. Lube on the threads may help some. If we can grease up a barrel tennon, stands to reason you can grease the guard screws. don't forget under the head of the screw also as it has quite a bit of surface area as well. This is one reason why in auto racing things like rod bolts aren't torqued anymore. They measure the elongation of the fastener when it's placed under load. The "stretch" has been calculated to deliver the appropriate amount of tension to ensure the rod cap stays put. Torque to yield fasteners kinda fall into this realm too.


I've used 40lbs for at least 8 years now. Never once has it failed me. I spent 3 years in Iraq as a security contractor. I was also the chief armorer/firearms instructor at the US Embassy in Baghdad. I bring this up because I heard all sorts of rumors about M40's having issues with zeros.

Guess what the Marines preach? 65lbs.

I always wondered if that had something to do with it.


Take it for what its worth. Just thought I'd share that.


C.


Chad Dixon
Owner/Gunmaker
LongRifles, Inc.

Very good Info Chad.

I do treat stainless screws differently than heat treated screws by using anti seize compounds
on them. (An example is stainless muzzle breaks on stainless barrels).

When you said 40 lbs I assume you meant 40 inch pounds.

I have heard of people using over 100 ft/lbs on a barrel to reciever connection because the threads
are rated higher, but there is a reasonable limit to all torque values,And this is where experance
comes in.

As far as limiting myself to 40in/lbs on the bedding screws I have some rifles that will shoot lose if
torque is set at 40 but when increased to 50+ this probablem stops, so I leave my options open.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM
 
I look up the max torque for that screw size.
Then I have to know what grade screw it is.
Then I have to measure how much engagement with the female threads.
Then I have to evaluate the female material; Steel is best, but it may be cast iron or Aluminum.
If engagement is more than 1.5 times the root [minor diameter of the screw] the screw is probably the weak link.
Then I have to evaluate the lubrication. Wax makes for much more tension from the same torque. Oil and grease not so much. Clean and dry is the least.
Then I calibrate the torque wrench. I use as standards, a ruler and a weight that I weighed on a balance beam.
Then I do a destructive test on sample material to verity my calculation is correct. If the female is the weak link, I mill sample material to the same thickness.


Most guys just want a recipe answer.
 
Scope base screws 30 inch-lbs "MAX"
Windage screws 30-40 inch-lbs "MAX"
Scope ring screws (Aluminum Rings) 10-15 inch-lbs "MAX"
Scope ring screws (Steel Rings) 15-20 inch-lbs "MAX"
Note' If scope base and ring Screws have less than 5 threads of engagement they should be replaced with longer ones.

30 inch-lbs for #6 base screws seems too high, especially when #8 ring screws in steel get only 15-20 inch-lbs.

I would recommend reversing the values:
#6 base screws 20 inch-lbs
#8 ring screws (steel rings) 30 inch-lbs

That's what I use and it keeps me out of trouble.
 
Re: Torque Recommendations

30 inch-lbs for #6 base screws seems too high, especially when #8 ring screws in steel get only 15-20 inch-lbs.

I would recommend reversing the values:
#6 base screws 20 inch-lbs
#8 ring screws (steel rings) 30 inch-lbs

That's what I use and it keeps me out of trouble.



Those are MAX Torque values and should be reduced unless you are having trouble with them coming loose. Any more torque, and the screws should be replaced every time the scope bases are removed.

This is also with a minimum of 5 threads of engagement and on steel (Not Aluminum).


J E CUSTOM
 
This should be in the "sticky" section!
 

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Is there any way to guess in the bedding screw torque? I mean screw snug then 1/2 turn or something like that?


It aint like hydraulic lifters...you dont torque them down to you hear them crack...and then back off 1/2 turn!!!

If your messing with anymore than 1 rifle...get a "fatwrench" of something for proper torque
 
It aint like hydraulic lifters...you dont torque them down to you hear them crack...and then back off 1/2 turn!!!

If your messing with anymore than 1 rifle...get a "fatwrench" of something for proper torque

+1.

If you are really flush with cash get yourself a dial type 1/4" drive torque wrench and learn to use that.

Always keep in mind that relative (prevailing) torque is always measured on the center axis of the measurement tool. Altering the center axis changes the indicated torque value by the distance between the indicator tool center axis and the center axis of the drive itself.

Simply put, with a long enough lever, you can move the earth with your finger....:)
 
Is there any way to guess in the bedding screw torque? I mean screw snug then 1/2 turn or something like that?

There are many reasons to use a torque wrench.

1= you don't over stress the screw or part.

2=you apply the right amount of torque so the screw can be used again (Once over stressed, screws should be discarded to avoid failure.

3=In the case of bedding screws it is very important to use the correct torque for the type of stock and its use. Also if you have a good zero and have to take the action/barrel from the stock because of repairs or cleaning, You can re-torque to the same torque values and have a good chance that the zero's won't change, or at worst they will be very close.

4= And to stress the importance of good , consistent Torque In many cases you can start with minimum bedding screw torque (30 to 35 inch pounds) and increase accuracy by upping the torque in 5 pound increments until max accuracy is achieved with out reaching max torque values.

I hope this helps everyone understand the importance of proper torque settings.

J E CUSTOM
 
sorry to dig this up.

"Scope ring screws (Steel Rings) 15-20 inch-lbs "MAX""

does this include big chamberings like chey-tac based cartridges as well?
 
sorry to dig this up.

"Scope ring screws (Steel Rings) 15-20 inch-lbs "MAX""

does this include big chamberings like chey-tac based cartridges as well?
Torque value depends on the size , pitch and grade of material the screw is made of and the grade of material it is being screwed into, not the chambering/recoil of the rifle. If the screws are torqued to their max recommended value and the scope still moves in the rings during recoil you have a different problem.
 
My concern is putting too much pressure on the scope with the rings. The Rings in question are 34mm seekins 6/4 rings.
 
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