Took the advice here and.........

[DartonJager]

..........Bought Forster bench rest bullet seating dies for my three most used rifle calibers. I am hoping combined with Lee Collet dies and Redding body only sizing dies to produce reloads with consistently 0.002" of run out or less.

I don't yet have a concentricity gauge but rolling my brass and loaded rounds on a dead flat piece of plate glass has worked ok thus far

For the sake of learning I've been saving three reloads from each batch I make to test against ones I make using the Forster BR/BSD when I get it.

Am really looking forward to see how much difference the Forster die will make in terms of reducing run out.

 

[rcoody]

There is a.whole lot more to loading accurate ammo then buying premium dies

Quality equipment certainly helps in that quest.

But many shooters use the lee collet neck sizing die and create ammo second to none

 

[DartonJager]

There is a.whole lot more to loading accurate ammo then buying premium dies

Quality equipment certainly helps in that quest.

But many shooters use the lee collet neck sizing die and create ammo second to none

True enough, but I already have what is by most sane peoples standards, quite considerable funds invested in reloading tools and equipment that prudence demands justification before I invest farther in any new reloading aids, especially ones well over $100.

Keeping in mind all I own are 100% non-custom mass produced rifles, I have proven the equipment and tools I presently have and use are capable of producing very, very accurate reloads, any additional equipment or tools I invest in (especially ones costing at or above $100) I can only justify their expense if they can improve either the quality or consistency of my reloads.

I have begun to believe of all the factors with in my scope of control, that there is nothing more detrimental to my reloads than run out induced into my reloads by my equipment or my process. I also feel it makes much greater financial sense to spend close to $200 on better dies and equipment to eliminate or reduce run out to a lever where it's no longer a factor VS the same money on a concentricity gauge which will only tell me run out is present but may or may not tell me how how to fix it.

My present run out gauge is a dead flat piece of 1" plate glass I lucked into long ago I have made equally dead level that I roll my brass and reloads across under a bright light. I am confident with my naked eyes I can detect run out down to 0.002" anything below 0.002" is IMHO inconsequential to my level of shooting.

If after using the Foster BR BS/Die combined with my Lee Collet dies and Redding body only sizing dies along with my reloading process I'm still getting unexplained fliers with the same level of regularity, I will have to consider other avenues of action.

 

[rcoody]

True enough, but I already have what is by most sane peoples standards, quite considerable funds invested in reloading tools and equipment that prudence demands justification before I invest farther in any new reloading aids, especially ones well over $100.

Keeping in mind all I own are 100% non-custom mass produced rifles, I have proven the equipment and tools I presently have and use are capable of producing very, very accurate reloads, any additional equipment or tools I invest in (especially ones costing at or above $100) I can only justify their expense if they can improve either the quality or consistency of my reloads.

I have begun to believe of all the factors with in my scope of control, that there is nothing more detrimental to my reloads than run out induced into my reloads by my equipment or my process. I also feel it makes much greater financial sense to spend close to $200 on better dies and equipment to eliminate or reduce run out to a lever where it's no longer a factor VS the same money on a concentricity gauge which will only tell me run out is present but may or may not tell me how how to fix it.

My present run out gauge is a dead flat piece of 1" plate glass I lucked into long ago I have made equally dead level that I roll my brass and reloads across under a bright light. I am confident with my naked eyes I can detect run out down to 0.002" anything below 0.002" is IMHO inconsequential to my level of shooting.

If after using the Foster BR BS/Die combined with my Lee Collet dies and Redding body only sizing dies along with my reloading process I'm still getting unexplained fliers with the same level of regularity, I will have to consider other avenues of action.

"Unexplained fliers"

Are usually representative of the true group size for a rifle and.shooter

Shoot.a.10 round group or a 25 round.group and.count.those "fliers". That is your true group size.

Using quality components, Mastering seating.depth and accurate powder charges will do more
for.your.group size than worrying about runout.

If you don't know what stage runout.is being.introduced into your.ammo then you have.no idea how to fix.it.

 

[DartonJager]

"Unexplained fliers"

Are usually representative of the true group size for a rifle and.shooter

Shoot.a.10 round group or a 25 round.group and.count.those "fliers". That is your true group size.

Using quality components, Mastering seating.depth and accurate powder charges will do more
for.your.group size than worrying about runout.

If you don't know what stage runout.is being.introduced into your.ammo then you have.no idea how to fix.it.

Truthful and accurate points for certain, that is why I weigh every powder charge and only accept exact ones, not close enough but exact, and I feel using a Lee Collet die along with Redding body only sizing dies and now a Forster BR bullet seating die will go a long way to reduce run out to a level where it is a nonfactor.
As I can not get what I feel is a definite recommendation on a concentricity gauge that costs less than $230 or more (save for the one made by Neco) so Im holding off yet on that considerable investment for now.

rcody,
Besides certain styles of re-sizing and bullet seating, what other reloading steps can be responsible for the introduction of run out in your reloads?

As far as my reloading process goes the only suspect areas would be when I neck size only with my Lee Collet dies, or while seating the bullet. No other step I perform impacts the case mouth. I doubt champhering or polishing the case neck and mouth can induce run out.

As far as seating depth goes none of my rifles have enough room in their magazines to allow me to experiment all that much because I could never get that close, I don't recall exact measurements right now but I know getting as close as .010" off the lands was never possible and still have reliable feeding.

 

[codyadams]

Truthful and accurate points for certain, that is why I weigh every powder charge and only accept exact ones, not close enough but exact, and I feel using a Lee Collet die along with Redding body only sizing dies and now a Forster BR bullet seating die will go a long way to reduce run out to a level where it is a nonfactor.
As I can not get what I feel is a definite recommendation on a concentricity gauge that costs less than $230 or more (save for the one made by Neco) so Im holding off yet on that considerable investment for now.

rcody,
Besides certain styles of re-sizing and bullet seating, what other reloading steps can be responsible for the introduction of run out in your reloads?

As far as my reloading process goes the only suspect areas would be when I neck size only with my Lee Collet dies, or while seating the bullet. No other step I perform impacts the case mouth. I doubt champhering or polishing the case neck and mouth can induce run out.

Low quality brass can add some run out, and neck turning can help to a certain extent, but if you use good loading practices and use high end brass such as lapua, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Make sure not to focus too hard on one thing when your trying to get the most out of a shooting system, for instance, now you will have some very high quality reloading tools and components, and if you do your side of it you will be producing high quality ammo. If you are still getting only .75" or larger 5 shot groups, and you want better accuracy, I highly doubt it's your ammunitions consistency to blame.

You said you have 100% factory rifles...I'll list a few important things to check on factory guns, and custom ones as well...

Good stress free bedding, with no contact on trigger/safety components or barrel

Good stiff stock, even with good bedding, a tupper ware stock is still not gonna help you out in a quest for accuracy

A high quality trigger, not all are created equal, and bad ones make it hard to get consistency

Properly torqued action/base/ring screws. Over/under torquing by a significant amount can cause issues

Scope base/rail bedding. This can cause some issues at times

Good quality optics. This is self explanatory...

Sometimes factory rifles just won't shoot that well and have flyers...

Proper bore condition. Is the rifle over fouled, or cleaned too much? Every barrel is different, my remington 700 22-250 with factory barrel would fall apart after 75-100 rounds and need cleaning, my Krieger chambered in .260 AI is on 220ish rounds fired since the last cleaning and my last group was a .4 MOA 5 shot group at 822 yards. And this is normal...

Are you using consistent form in your shooting? A change in head position, rifle hold, how firm/loose you hold the rifle, all these things and more can make a .25" impact change at 100 yards, making your .25" group a .5" group.

It's excellent that your improving your reloading tools and practices, it can only help!! But just remember, getting the most accuracy possible isn't just about one thing, you must be well rounded. If you spend 2,000 hours perfecting your reloading practices, 3,500 hours perfecting your shooting skill, but shoot a factory rifle, that may be the weak point if your looking for a consistent .25 MOA gun, or if you only spend 500 hours on your shooting, that may be the weak point.

Most of us have lives outside of shooting, and getting the most from ourselves is about proper time management, just make sure not to focus your time and money on one aspect too much and forget another important one. Sorry for getting off topic!!

 

[rcoody]

This is why you need the concetricity gauge and others. The sinclair is fine. Even the old school forster case inspector works. Watch the accurate shooter clasifieds. Save you money. Great website.very helpful people.

What brand of brass do you use? Inconsistent neck wall thickness can start you down that path from the start.

Check new brass for concetricity. First firing should straighten that neck but it would be a suspect case for me. Of course i weigh sort my brass too.

Check fired brass for concetricity. Should be the best it is going to be. Find a problem here. Your chamber is not concentric with the bore.

Check after sizing. I have several lee collets with redding body dies, redding bushing dies, forster full length sizing dies, whidden dies and some other custom dies. They can all make straight ammo. If runnout is being introduced during sizing then something is wrong in your setup. I use a co-ax press which helps keep everything concentric. Could be the die, could be the press, could be your technique. But if you find you introduce runout at this stage you know what to work on.

Check after seating. I have used the forster seater in my co-ax for years. I know it produces straight ammo. But if you find the runout introduced here you have work to do. I have gone to the wilson in line seater and an arbor press more for something different. Don't think it makes straighter ammo but it is fun. I really did it to measure seating pressure and see what i could do to make it more consistent. I use the 21st century shooting hydro press. Learned a lot about neck tension with that.

I think too much is made of concetricity. If it is less than .003 you are golden. Unless you are looking to improve your groups by tenths .005 is probably fine. Lots of things are much more important. I think the reason people get so fixated with concetricity is it iz easily measured.

 

[DartonJager]

"Unexplained fliers"

Are usually representative of the true group size for a rifle and.shooter

Shoot.a.10 round group or a 25 round.group and.count.those "fliers". That is your true group size.

Using quality components, Mastering seating.depth and accurate powder charges will do more
for.your.group size than worrying about runout.

If you don't know what stage runout.is being.introduced into your.ammo then you have.no idea how to fix.it.

The widely accepted practice of determining accuracy in the firearms community of 10 and even 25 shot groups makes sense to me when applied to specialized semi-custom or custom rifles (often equipped with equally specialized optics) built for the purpose of competing in the numerous disciplines such as bench rest or long range which competing in mandates multiple strings of shooting large numbers of rounds of five or more, and in many types events much more.

But applying such accuracy standards to mass produced 100% factory rifles which are the only types I own, with all due respect, makes little sense to me. I say this because in the last 15 deer seasons hunting in both IL and IN I killed 26 deer with a firearm and took only 28 shots, my point being I rarely take more than one shot while actually hunting and in the last 15 years have never taken three shots at ANY animal, so I simply don't see the need for shooting groups larger than 5 shots let alone 10 or 25.

I also feel the accuracy of my first 3 shots of my hunting rifles is more important than all subsequent shots again based on my many years experience that I have never had to take more than three shots at a deer, elk or antelope to kill it.

I'm not trying to be insolent or argumentative in my disagreeing with the beliefs of those far more knowledgeable than myself, I just don't see why if I have a rifle that puts its first 3 shots per range session into near perfectly its known zero time and time again all they way out to my personal maximum effective hunting range how 10 shot or larger round count groups prove anything about the rifles accuracy.

IMHO as it applies to 100% factory rifles who sole purpose is for big game hunting, 10 shot or 25 shot groups really aren't going to tell me anything a 5 shot group won't, again based on my belief I never have needed three shots to kill an animal, and just can not imagine taking 5 let alone more shots at an animal. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever taken five shots in an entire deer season while hunting in two different states.

Just my .2c worth.

 

[DartonJager]

Low quality brass can add some run out, and neck turning can help to a certain extent, but if you use good loading practices and use high end brass such as lapua, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Make sure not to focus too hard on one thing when your trying to get the most out of a shooting system, for instance, now you will have some very high quality reloading tools and components, and if you do your side of it you will be producing high quality ammo. If you are still getting only .75" or larger 5 shot groups, and you want better accuracy, I highly doubt it's your ammunitions consistency to blame.

You said you have 100% factory rifles...I'll list a few important things to check on factory guns, and custom ones as well...

Good stress free bedding, with no contact on trigger/safety components or barrel

Good stiff stock, even with good bedding, a tupper ware stock is still not gonna help you out in a quest for accuracy

A high quality trigger, not all are created equal, and bad ones make it hard to get consistency

Properly torqued action/base/ring screws. Over/under torquing by a significant amount can cause issues

Scope base/rail bedding. This can cause some issues at times

Good quality optics. This is self explanatory...

Sometimes factory rifles just won't shoot that well and have flyers...

Proper bore condition. Is the rifle over fouled, or cleaned too much? Every barrel is different, my remington 700 22-250 with factory barrel would fall apart after 75-100 rounds and need cleaning, my Krieger chambered in .260 AI is on 220ish rounds fired since the last cleaning and my last group was a .4 MOA 5 shot group at 822 yards. And this is normal...

Are you using consistent form in your shooting? A change in head position, rifle hold, how firm/loose you hold the rifle, all these things and more can make a .25" impact change at 100 yards, making your .25" group a .5" group.

It's excellent that your improving your reloading tools and practices, it can only help!! But just remember, getting the most accuracy possible isn't just about one thing, you must be well rounded. If you spend 2,000 hours perfecting your reloading practices, 3,500 hours perfecting your shooting skill, but shoot a factory rifle, that may be the weak point if your looking for a consistent .25 MOA gun, or if you only spend 500 hours on your shooting, that may be the weak point.

Most of us have lives outside of shooting, and getting the most from ourselves is about proper time management, just make sure not to focus your time and money on one aspect too much and forget another important one. Sorry for getting off topic!!

Thank you excellent points all. I have completely realistic accuracy expectations of my rifles because they are 100% factory. All I expect with reloads from any of my rifles is MOA or better and all of my rifles at present, even both of my Marlin 336C lever actions in 35 Remington all shoot 3-shot 100 yard groups at or below 1 MOA with reloads which surprised the utter crapola out of me. As a matter of fact my Marlin 336C's were the easiest rifles I ever reloaded for.

Right now I have several reloads that my Tikka T3 will shoot very well, one has consistently produced sub-moa 3 shot and even sub-moa 5 shot groups, so at this point with a 100% factory rifle I doubt I can do much to improve accuracy only make it more consistent.

I also must weigh the costs VS gains to improve a rifles over all accuracy. To have the T-3 restocked and then glass bed would cost about 90% - over 100% of the rifles original purchase price and if the rifle is already MOA or better, is spending considerably more money to gain an accuracy reduction of 1/4" or maybe a little more worth it in a hunting rifle? IMHO no, others might believe differently.

I will wait until I can shoot from 400 to 600 yards if I can not achieve acceptable accuracy I will then consider investing in upgrades.

 

[DartonJager]

This is why you need the concetricity gauge and others. The sinclair is fine. Even the old school forster case inspector works. Watch the accurate shooter clasifieds. Save you money. Great website.very helpful people.

What brand of brass do you use? Inconsistent neck wall thickness can start you down that path from the start.

Check new brass for concetricity. First firing should straighten that neck but it would be a suspect case for me. Of course i weigh sort my brass too.

Check fired brass for concetricity. Should be the best it is going to be. Find a problem here. Your chamber is not concentric with the bore.

Check after sizing. I have several lee collets with redding body dies, redding bushing dies, forster full length sizing dies, whidden dies and some other custom dies. They can all make straight ammo. If runnout is being introduced during sizing then something is wrong in your setup. I use a co-ax press which helps keep everything concentric. Could be the die, could be the press, could be your technique. But if you find you introduce runout at this stage you know what to work on.

Check after seating. I have used the forster seater in my co-ax for years. I know it produces straight ammo. But if you find the runout introduced here you have work to do. I have gone to the wilson in line seater and an arbor press more for something different. Don't think it makes straighter ammo but it is fun. I really did it to measure seating pressure and see what i could do to make it more consistent. I use the 21st century shooting hydro press. Learned a lot about neck tension with that.

I think too much is made of concetricity. If it is less than .003 you are golden. Unless you are looking to improve your groups by tenths .005 is probably fine. Lots of things are much more important. I think the reason people get so fixated with concetricity is it iz easily measured.

Would you please list what is in your opinion the most important factors for developing accurate reloads, I don't want trouble you to list how to fix problems I will do that on my own. Also keep in mind I am looking for ways to make consistent reloads that will produce MOA or slightly better groups from a factory rifle, so I would imagine certain reloading practices suitable for competitive level accuracy might be wasted if applied to a rifle who's primary purpose is for hunting.

Thanks,
DJager/Art.

 

[rcoody]

Well for.my hunting.rifles i pick a bullet and powder

Run an OCW test to find a group of charges with little or no vertical change. Pick a charge in the middle.

Do the berger seating depth test. Find your best seating depth

Take it to the.range and.sight.in. if you plan to use.a.ballistic.calculator you will need to know your muzzle velocity

Then for the last few weeks before.the.season i always bring my hunting.rifle to the range. Just shoot that first cold bore shot. The one that counts.

And i don't clean it.till the.season is.over

 

[DartonJager]

Tanks to all for the responses. Although I'm not actually starting over as a reloader, I am having to accept many things that I thought were good enough are in fact are not, and I am having to either change, adapt or out right stop certain aspects of my reloading process. I am absolutely comfortable with that as in the end it will make my reloads capable of (I hope) optimal consistentcy and ultimately max accuracy.

 

[rcoody]

Tanks to all for the responses. Although I'm not actually starting over as a reloader, I am having to accept many things that I thought were good enough are in fact are not, and I am having to either change, adapt or out right stop certain aspects of my reloading process. I am absolutely comfortable with that as in the end it will make my reloads capable of (I hope) optimal consistentcy and ultimately max accuracy.

You are going down the rabbit hole.

Want to learn what works and doesn't. Buy you a nice 6BR bench gun. You can find one quite reasonable in the accurate shooter classifieds

The inherent accuracy of that caliber wil allow you to quickly see the improvements in your reloading techniques.

 

[Rich Coyle]

You are going down the rabbit hole.

Want to learn what works and doesn't. Buy you a nice 6BR bench gun. You can find one quite reasonable in the accurate shooter classifieds

The inherent accuracy of that caliber wil allow you to quickly see the improvements in your reloading techniques.

This may seem like a hijack but it is not my intent. It is to show the difference in factory rifles. I purchased a heavy barrel Savage .223. Regularly fired five shots in under half inch. A friend bought a heavy Remington .223. He couldn't get it to shoot any better than 3/4" for five shots and sent it to me. No matter what I did I could not do any better than he did and called to let him know.

He asked, "What would you do?" "I would sell it and get a Savage." He did. I fired the first three shots with my accuate load: 3/8". He fired the next five: 4/10".

What I'm trying to get at is sometime you need to get a new rifle.