STL_Shooter
Well-Known Member
Brent, what could I add to your already thorough treatment of the subject?
Neck length: ~.245
Shoulder diameter: ~.565
Neck length: ~.245
Shoulder diameter: ~.565
Tomahawk (300 RUM imp.) vs WarBird???
- Thread starter NorthernSniper
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orwapitihunter
Well-Known Member
NorthernSniper
I can't speak about the Tomahawk but I do have some experience with the Warbird. As far as velocitites go I shoot a 180gr Accubond at 3555fps with the Lazzeroni listed max load of RL25. This is with a 27" Lilja barrel on a 700 action. I have tested a few other loads with IMR7828. 180 Nosler Partition at 3447fps at 3.5grs below max(this was my old hunting load). 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3670fps at 2grs below max. As far as advertised velocities, I don't have any problem duplicating them with listed data.
With that out of the way I have to agree with everyone else that the brass is the fly in the ointment. I haven't seperated any cases in the 6 or 7 years I and a friend have been shooting Warbirds. But weight and neck thickness show too much variation. I have minimized this to some degree by sorting. I am happy with the accuracy I am getting.
If I were building a replacement rifle I would go straight to the unaltered 300RUM. Better brass is being made, and will be cheaper and easier to come by. Easy to find a factory rifle or an easier less $ custom build. No fire forming(not that it is difficult but its more components and wear on your barrel). From a hunting stand point I don't see enough advantage to deal with the downside of the other chamberings.
Hope some part of this rambling helps.
I can't speak about the Tomahawk but I do have some experience with the Warbird. As far as velocitites go I shoot a 180gr Accubond at 3555fps with the Lazzeroni listed max load of RL25. This is with a 27" Lilja barrel on a 700 action. I have tested a few other loads with IMR7828. 180 Nosler Partition at 3447fps at 3.5grs below max(this was my old hunting load). 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3670fps at 2grs below max. As far as advertised velocities, I don't have any problem duplicating them with listed data.
With that out of the way I have to agree with everyone else that the brass is the fly in the ointment. I haven't seperated any cases in the 6 or 7 years I and a friend have been shooting Warbirds. But weight and neck thickness show too much variation. I have minimized this to some degree by sorting. I am happy with the accuracy I am getting.
If I were building a replacement rifle I would go straight to the unaltered 300RUM. Better brass is being made, and will be cheaper and easier to come by. Easy to find a factory rifle or an easier less $ custom build. No fire forming(not that it is difficult but its more components and wear on your barrel). From a hunting stand point I don't see enough advantage to deal with the downside of the other chamberings.
Hope some part of this rambling helps.
NorthernSniper
Well-Known Member
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BirdShooter, I had the TRG-S WarBird version but every time I tried to move up off minimum loads I had major pressure signs and other problems regardless of powder. Most people I have come accross that are happy with the WarBird are people that had their rifle rebarreled. A lot of people after rebarreling with a good barrel could shoot awesome groups @ 500yds ect. I have to agree the 300 Ultra seems like the way to go although the 30-338 sounds like an awfully nice creation.
Esoteric Junkie
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I have a friend who is shooting a straight 300Rum with 240gr MK's. He was shooting them at 3000fps out of a 30" barrel. They did not shoot good at that velocity. He backed them down to 2800fps and they shoot much better.
1000 yards F-class is the game he is playing with the 240grs.
It seems that the only thing extra velocity gets you is larger groups. Most of the MK bullets seem to fly best at about 2800-3000fps. Any faster then groups start really opening up.
Corbin Shell
1000 yards F-class is the game he is playing with the 240grs.
It seems that the only thing extra velocity gets you is larger groups. Most of the MK bullets seem to fly best at about 2800-3000fps. Any faster then groups start really opening up.
Corbin Shell
G
Guest
Guest
I'll agree with Brent on the Lapua brass subject, but you guys are shortchanging the Tomahawk... I get 3200 fps with a Sierra 240 gr MatchKing from my 30 inch Hart barrel. You won't do that with a standard RUM.The 210 can be pushed to 3350 easily... If you are building on a standard 700 action, the Tommy is the way to go.
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Chris
Respectfully...the Tomahawk only has about 2 to 4 grains more powder capacity than the RUM. I know. I measured both cases and studied both reamer diagrams. Velocity gains at the same pressures can only be about 20 to 40 fps.
Respectfully...the Tomahawk only has about 2 to 4 grains more powder capacity than the RUM. I know. I measured both cases and studied both reamer diagrams. Velocity gains at the same pressures can only be about 20 to 40 fps.
G
Guest
Guest
Len--
Respectfully...Please...You don't have to be so condescending...
I have measured them also(I happen to own one) and the average is more like 7-8 grains... We've had this discussion before here and it seems that you guys that like to discount the Tomahawk can't seem to get your scales to read correctly. You show me a .300 RUM that'll do 3200 with a 240 gr SMK and NO pressure signs with the same length barrel as my Tommy and I'll buy it.
I happen to also own a 26" K&P barreled .300 RUM and get 3200 with a 200 gr Accubond. I anm well aware of the differences between the two cases and their abilities. My post was directed toward the original poster who ASKED about the Tomahawk.
Respectfully...Please...You don't have to be so condescending...
I have measured them also(I happen to own one) and the average is more like 7-8 grains... We've had this discussion before here and it seems that you guys that like to discount the Tomahawk can't seem to get your scales to read correctly. You show me a .300 RUM that'll do 3200 with a 240 gr SMK and NO pressure signs with the same length barrel as my Tommy and I'll buy it.
I happen to also own a 26" K&P barreled .300 RUM and get 3200 with a 200 gr Accubond. I anm well aware of the differences between the two cases and their abilities. My post was directed toward the original poster who ASKED about the Tomahawk.
Brent
Well-Known Member
Chris,
I think you took Len the wrong way. I think he's only stating that he wasn't guessing is all, and that the case capacity increase is minimal, therefor a standard MV improvement could be reasonably assumed to be what he stated.
It's simple math and that's all, case capacity that is. Volume is easily figured out with the new and old dimensions.
I would also guess that your throat is longer like the one in Tim's Tomahawk specifically for the 240gr SMK, but of course you could do that to the Ultra Mag as well, gain efective case capacity and still use factory dies.
I will pay you for 5 of your fire formed Tomahawk cases.
The Ultra Mag cases are just what they are, a case design that is 99% maximized in almost every way possible right from the factory, which is good, just that the cost is higher to improve a case (any case), the gain really has to be worth it to drop an additional $275-350 on dies... for all but a select few I guess.
If the case had a 7-8gr capacity increase it would be seriously looked at by ME TOO, and for good reasons. But what I can't get over is that a gain of this to take place, it would require the case to be MUCH longer to the shoulder than it is.
How you get the speed you do, well there's a few ways to explain the numbers you see.
I think you took Len the wrong way. I think he's only stating that he wasn't guessing is all, and that the case capacity increase is minimal, therefor a standard MV improvement could be reasonably assumed to be what he stated.
It's simple math and that's all, case capacity that is. Volume is easily figured out with the new and old dimensions.
I would also guess that your throat is longer like the one in Tim's Tomahawk specifically for the 240gr SMK, but of course you could do that to the Ultra Mag as well, gain efective case capacity and still use factory dies.
I will pay you for 5 of your fire formed Tomahawk cases.
The Ultra Mag cases are just what they are, a case design that is 99% maximized in almost every way possible right from the factory, which is good, just that the cost is higher to improve a case (any case), the gain really has to be worth it to drop an additional $275-350 on dies... for all but a select few I guess.
If the case had a 7-8gr capacity increase it would be seriously looked at by ME TOO, and for good reasons. But what I can't get over is that a gain of this to take place, it would require the case to be MUCH longer to the shoulder than it is.
How you get the speed you do, well there's a few ways to explain the numbers you see.
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Chris
Sorry if I sounded condescending to you. Didn't mean to. You seem to be a very knowledgeable, experienced shooter and gun owner...much more so than I. I would never try to talk down to you. I would be found out in a flash. If you notice, I usually let others provide the tough technical answers on this forum because there are probably 500 members here with more technical knowledge than I...yourself included. But I think I am right on this issue.
I know this is a sensitive issue to Tomahawk owners so I tried to be careful in my post. Again, sorry.
My response was directed to the original poster, too, since he seems to want to make an expensive decision about cartridge performance based mostly on case capacity differences.
Did you measure a new, unfired RUM case and compare it to a fire-formed Tomahawk case? There is somewhere around 2 to 3 grains gained simply by firing any case and comparing it to the capacity of a new, unfired case. When I use a Stoney Point tool to measure headspace on a new 7mm Dakota case for example, the base-to-shoulder dimension is 10 thousandths shorter than with a fire-formed case. Diameter at the shoulder is smaller also.
How much velocity gain do you think is achieved over that of the RUM?
I have a new rifle chambered in my favorite 7mm Dakota. The new rifle is safely getting about 75 fps more velocity than 2 previous 7mm rifles of mine. Same barrel length, etc. Same fire-formed case capacity. Same apparent lack of pressure signs. Someone with a pressure measuring device whould maybe tell me there is a difference in pressure, however. My point here is that simply observing higher velocity in one gun doesn't mean it was due to higher case capacity.
[ 03-29-2004: Message edited by: Len Backus ]
Sorry if I sounded condescending to you. Didn't mean to. You seem to be a very knowledgeable, experienced shooter and gun owner...much more so than I. I would never try to talk down to you. I would be found out in a flash. If you notice, I usually let others provide the tough technical answers on this forum because there are probably 500 members here with more technical knowledge than I...yourself included. But I think I am right on this issue.
I know this is a sensitive issue to Tomahawk owners so I tried to be careful in my post. Again, sorry.
My response was directed to the original poster, too, since he seems to want to make an expensive decision about cartridge performance based mostly on case capacity differences.
Did you measure a new, unfired RUM case and compare it to a fire-formed Tomahawk case? There is somewhere around 2 to 3 grains gained simply by firing any case and comparing it to the capacity of a new, unfired case. When I use a Stoney Point tool to measure headspace on a new 7mm Dakota case for example, the base-to-shoulder dimension is 10 thousandths shorter than with a fire-formed case. Diameter at the shoulder is smaller also.
How much velocity gain do you think is achieved over that of the RUM?
I have a new rifle chambered in my favorite 7mm Dakota. The new rifle is safely getting about 75 fps more velocity than 2 previous 7mm rifles of mine. Same barrel length, etc. Same fire-formed case capacity. Same apparent lack of pressure signs. Someone with a pressure measuring device whould maybe tell me there is a difference in pressure, however. My point here is that simply observing higher velocity in one gun doesn't mean it was due to higher case capacity.
[ 03-29-2004: Message edited by: Len Backus ]
G
Guest
Guest
Len--
Had a few spare minutes today so I filled two .300 Tomahawk cases and two .300 RUM cases(fireformed)level full with H870. Didn't have time to do any more. The Tomahawk cases were holding about 122.5 gr of H870 and the fireformed .300 RUM cases held about 117 gr.
I guess this about splits the difference between our two estimates...
Brent--
I don't have but 65 fireformed cases right now, and they are sorted by weight, so I don't want to part with any.
And BTW, The Redding die set for the Tommy is $100 from Ray Romain, not $275-350...
Had a few spare minutes today so I filled two .300 Tomahawk cases and two .300 RUM cases(fireformed)level full with H870. Didn't have time to do any more. The Tomahawk cases were holding about 122.5 gr of H870 and the fireformed .300 RUM cases held about 117 gr.
I guess this about splits the difference between our two estimates...
Brent--
I don't have but 65 fireformed cases right now, and they are sorted by weight, so I don't want to part with any.
And BTW, The Redding die set for the Tommy is $100 from Ray Romain, not $275-350...
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Thanks, Chris.
