Time for the truth

Censorship by any other name is still censorship.

"Go away and stop bothering us", is banning in another form.

But not to worry, I am resolved not to stir the pot further.
 
The one thing I have to agree with is the absolute refusal to talk about the negatives of a long shot. Talking about those bad shots is how you learn from mistakes, its not "ethics" its facts. And fact is far too many "bang" a plate and think they are ready to shoot live game at extended range. The fact that wind reading is not much of a topic tells a lot. As a person shoots more on paper at distance, where distance from aim points can be measured, the more they realize they are human. I build long range rifles for a living, and in skilled hands I think its the most ethical kill a guy can make, but I despise the $$$$ marketing that makes guys think its easy if you open your wallet. Im sorry but if your range only goes out to 300yds you can not learn what the wind will do to your bullet at long range. Your apps can only take you so far.

Like most forums, there is excellent info here. You just need to sort through it.
Alex,
Your no stranger to long range shooting/hunting. I've seen your Montana 2K results. I wish I could have attended a couple of those events. Timing was bad but I'll be there eventually if they continue. Wind is something that very few hunters learn much about in shooting. I say very few because all competitive shooters that shoot beyond 300 yards MUST learn how to shoot in wind. Hunters that do learn, succeed in making LR kills ethically and efficiently. 700 yards is a gimme to a wind study shooter. Obviously how much wind, plays a huge part in if the shot should even be taken. Many other factors as you know are nearly as important. In short, I'm not qualified to tell another guy if he should take a 500-1000 yard shot on an animal. Only he knows if he's qualified to make it. If not, he's part of the problem plaguing hunters that get named slobs for unethically taking shots they have no business taking. I'm not one of those slobs and know my limitations.
 
I think this is one of the better forums out there. I have learned a good deal on this site and hopefully have contributed some as well. While I prefer to get as close as possible to game I like to be able to reach out there a ways when the only other option is tag soup. There are plenty of people on here with greater shooting abilities and more experience than me. Some are younger and have many less years experience than I do,but that doesn't change the fact that they have put in more practice than I have. I hate it when someone gets banned,but seldom is it without plenty of warnings from what I have seen. I feel like a site owner,small business owner or large company should have the right to run things as they wish as long as it is up front and made clear ahead of time, and the same rules apply to all. After all we have the right to stay or leave.
 
Welcone too the forum stef-han...

I like too kid around since there are too many pepole in the world that take life too seriously...

Nice looking critters by the way,,, yum yum...

Yuppers,,, this is a great forum of folks from around world,,, if there is something that you dont agree with,,, either read past it,,, block that person using your ignor option,,, or report it...

Life is that simple...

Len is a great dude,,, he allows us to be who we are,,, but rest assured that there is a line that the odd person might try too cross...

The majority of folks on this forum are top notch,,, great community with lots of ideas...

Enjoy being part of this forum,,, its all about having a good time,,, aint worth getting flusterd over the odd post...

North of the 49th Don
 
I am not bashing anyone. You need not turn this into name calling. I only pointed out my experience here. The site owner is incommunicado. The "contact us" choice at the bottom does not work.

Again you issue the veiled threat. Why are other points of view such a threat ?

If we were sitting across the table and I made the same points, would you tell me to get up and leave OR could you make a reasoned discussion supporting your position ?

And we wonder about the political divide in this country. No Tip ONeills or Scoop Jacksons to be found ?

the member you replied to here didn't call you any names. I agree with a lot of your opinions but, with all respect intended (not trying to shut you down or dismiss your grievances, for you and not against you) I must say, you seem to be doing the very thing you're so upset by (as we all do...the log in our own eye, I'm no different and I appreciate when people who have my best interest in mind tell me how actually come across as opposed to what I think I am like). It seems on the surface that you're just as easily offended and confrontational about people saying things you don't like as the people who manage this forum that have upset you. Have you privately messaged any of them to see if you're actually understanding each other right? Or just to talk honestly about how things seem to you without making accusations? All the best, this is a great community I think and I hope this can be resolved and you stay with us.
 
I joined this site because I hoped it would be what 24 Hour Campfire was 20 years ago.

I even ponied up to join LRH team.

In my 64 years behind the handgun, rifle, shotgun and bow, hunting pretty much everything in the lower 48 and competing in many match events, I have accumulated a bit of experience.

I am also a certified Curmudgeon. Don't put up with fools too well, especially those that have never worn the uniform not hunted (and been hunted by) the most dangerous game.

Sadly I was wrong. The site owner is here, as there, a pawn of a cadre of "men" who are in complete charge of the site. If you cross them or confront them with inconvenient facts, (A 338 RUM cannot be made to have the same recoil energy as a 243) you are subject to name called, veiled threats and calls for banning.

PC is also in full force here. When the judgement of a hunter wounding an Elk with a bow, following it into dense cover and getting killed is questioned ---- well you are a "meanie" and should get the "ban hammer".

Members here also seem to have a complete inability to confront the negative aspects of long range hunting. Never mentioned nor considered are the difficulties of killing an animal at long ranges. All we see are the good outcomes.

In my 64 years of hunting I lost one animal. A bowshot deer, found several days later. I still think about what I should have done.

By way of example, hear the story of a hunt in 2017 (I was only 75).

After 17 years I drew a resident Sheep tag here in WY.

A lot of research connected me with an excellent outfitter. We all met up at his base camp. Five of us, 2 30s something Elk Hunters, 2 40s something Mulie hunters and me.

The first clue was when the Mulie hunters required an extra packhorse to carry in their 200 pounds of Pelican cases.

After the 6 hour ride on Mountain horses ( I own a 16 hand 1/4 horse and ride a lot) we arrived at the tent camp in the Federal Wilderness.

After getting settled, we all gathered for a brief and lunch. The discussion, as always, turned to background and equipment.
The Elk hunters had quality bolt guns and optics and had hunted all over NA. My equipment, Benelli R1 300 WM, Nightforce 2.5-10x32, shoot 1 moa to 400, was regarded with interest by the Elk hunters and disdain by the Mulie boys.

The Mulie hunters 200 pounds of equipment consisted of two 12 pound 300 custom 300 WM with multi 1000 $ scopes and every piece of equipment under the sun. They told us what experts they were back in the MidWest at banging steel out to 1000 off benches and bipods and planned the same on this Mulie buck.

So the hunt commenced. The Elk hunters passed on several bulls that were too small. They finally connected on a fine 5X6 at 275 yards.

I went off with the outfiitter, on horses, up to where where Bighorns live. After days of glassing and passing up many rams.
we finally spotted a "shooter" at well over 1000 yards. Then we began "Hunting". Using terrain and cover we got to 280 yards. Resting over my day packed I killed my ram. (photo below).

Meanwhile the Mulie hunters had gone off (needing 4 horses) with an experienced guide to set up on a known Mule Deer route. As the guide later described, they could have set up at 400 yards but insisted on being at 700. After deploying all their technology they waited. That afternoon (after the famous WY winds came up) a decent buck appeared walking across a snow cover slide. Hunter #1 sent 5 downrange, with his pal spotting and never touched a hair until the buck, unalarmed, walked into the black timber.
The next day (the last) back to the same spot (in the dark). It was #2s turn. After day break (no wind) a good buck appeared and bedded down in the open. Same game plan and after only 5 shots the buck was hit and killed.

After hearing the story from his guide, the outfitter decided, after one experience he was done with long range hunters.

As one old timer I knew here in WY told me: "son you a'int hunting Elk till' you can smell em.".

Photo 2 below was an Elk killed at 18 paces with a 61 caliber Baker flintlock. (Sharpe's Rifles). I could smell him. The cover was an absolute jungle. The guide and I did not follow up until: I reloaded, handed the guide my S&W 329 and waited 30 minutes. When I found the Elk (he went 20 yards with a .610" hole thru both lungs), the guide and I stood 10 yards away on the side facing his back, head downhill with the 44 mag trained on him while the guide threw large rocks at him. He was dead.

I enjoy the forums, have bought several items from the classified, tried to help based on my experience.

That may not be enough if you twist the wrong tails.

Be interesting to see if this post survives the day won't it ?

Best wishes to all.

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I'm not sure what the big deal is, 2 hunters wanted to try their luck at long range hunting. One ate a tag on the way home one connected on shot 5. No one knows how buck fever may have intervened on the second shooters shots. Wind on first shooters shots was probably to blame and buck fever. I shot a bull at 600 yards in NM without fancy gear. A rangefinder and an elevation adjustment on the Zeiss. I practiced groups at that range and not steel plates, but I thought it was a chip shot with no wind. In the wind here in NY I found out the hard way to not stretch the distance but I recovered the deer.
There are negatives to every aspect that we do. Shall I hate trappers because it may hurt an animal and it chews its foot off to escape? (Yes I do trap on occasion) Shall I not like long range shooters because I don't have the resources beyond 600 yards to shoot and they can effectively harvest at 1000 yards and more (twice the distance I can).
All I can say is this day in age if we want our children and grandchildren to enjoy the hunting and shooting sports we should think about sticking together. Divided we will fall!!! Even the Curmudgeons!!
 
I remember watching a show awhile back on the Outdoor Channel where the pro wrestler Shawn Michaels missed 2 somewhat easy shots at a buck. Stuff happens. I learned in the past that the worst way to make a bad shot is to take a bad shot.

Some people know a whole lot more about nothing than most everyone else.
 
Not sure of the reasoning behind this post. I've had nothing but great experiences and interactions here and have learned a lot.

Not sure why I read all 5 pages of it to arrive at this being all I can contribute.

God bless you all. I'm ready for hunting season.
 
Censorship by any other name is still censorship.

"Go away and stop bothering us", is banning in another form.

But not to worry, I am resolved not to stir the pot further.


We are all grown adults and censorship can be in many forms and uses. I don't worry about what people do in there house, but do have rules In my house. I think that Len considers this site "His house" so he sets the rules on this site.

I have to honor his rules If i want to visit his house and he would have to honor my rules to inter my house and would not consider this censorship, but courtesy and if ether doesn't like the house rules, then we have to go some other place.

Personally, I like his rules and try hard to stay within them so I can come visit. I also don't mind being called out when I get out of line with the rules of this site. Many people use the web as a weapon and say things that they would get called out or worse, because they can hide behind the keyboard where it is safe.

Most of the members on this site try hard to get there opinions out to show the other side of the discussion without offending others in the process and it becomes a productive discussion and we all learn from it.

Just saying, Be happy that a site like this exist during these times when people can/will say anything. 👍 👍 👍

J E CUSTOM
 
The membership here likely consists of folks with a broad array of experience from the greenhorn to the seasoned veteran. We all try to do what works for us. Frankly I admit to not knowing everything [not even close] so there is plenty to learn yet. Hopefully we can all learn from each other; take something away from each visit and/or add to the knowledge base. Nobody was born being the perfect gunsmith, the perfect shooter or the perfect hunter.
 
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