Thermal scope recommendations

[packgoatguy]

Just looking for some advice...

So much to choose from with many new models coming out...

I really don't need a thermal that will let me shoot a Coyote at 500 yards, rather my criteria would be;

1. Identify and shoot rabbits out to 100 yards.
2. Identify and shoot coyotes out to 200 yards.
3. For scouting purposes, merely see the heat signature from deer sized animals in open country out to 1500 yards.

Option 1; a "clip on" style scope I could use to scan, and then mount on the front of my regular scope when I find the bunny I want to shoot.

OR

Option 2; a dedicated thermal scope mounted on the rifle, plus a second dedicated scanner thermal.

I don't care much about features like onboard video recording or wifi... but I would like range finding capability to be built in. Also, the lighter weight the better (preferably under 16oz including batteries)

This will be my first thermal, and probably not used more than 10-20 times a season, so the lower the price, the better. Mostly used for hunting jackrabbits, and pest coyotes in the blm behind our house. But sometimes used to help Identify deer bedding areas during the scouting season across canyons, etc.

I will probably post an ad on the classifieds as well. if anyone has a used one they would be interested in trading for some other firearms.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

I shared this with a couple of my Tech Reps and they replied:

Burris:
Any of the Burris thermals will work well for the rabbits and coyotes at the ranges you're talking about, however 1,500y is right on the edge of the detection capability for most of the sub $3.5k units, and could be affected by conditions. That being said, any of them should be able to show a heat signature at near that distance, and it should be identifiable inside 1,000y.

The BTC series works as a simple handheld scanner until it is attached to a scope- at which point the combined system offers the familiarity of your dayscope's sight picture, but with a thermal image overlayed. Unfortunately there is no rangefinding capability built-into the BTC, but the BTS/BTH both have a stadiametric rangefinder, which in a skilled user's hands can be surprisingly accurate. A good bit of the accuracy concern when it comes to ranging can be mitigated through cartridge choice though, which is why our team tends to use the new 6 ARC cartridge.

Something that I've seen many folks do is spring for a better quality handheld scanner to detect targets, and use a weapon-mounted digital night vision scope to actually engage said target. Digital NV is significantly less expensive, and therefore easier to find with integrated LRF, which would significantly improve accuracy.

Pulsar:
The new Pulsar thermal clip on the Proton. Its light weight can be used as a monocular and then attach to the scope or a pic rail. They only retail around $3,200-$3,300 so fairly inexpensive. It'll get done what he needs done at that range and capabilities.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

I suggest that you do a lot more homework and look at the post on LRH as well as other forums. You may be seeing too many TV shows. What you are looking for is at least $5K. First thing is you get what you pay for. I have seen Thermals from $800 to $10K and there is a difference. If you look at all the U-Tubes they are the best videos and doctored so you there is never videos where the thermal is not looking good. If you get one and think that it will look like a $8-10K thermal you will be disappointed. I have a $3,500 handheld and went out last night looking for Oreo (our cat) and the entire woods were almost a wash due to the temp being the same all day because of rain on the trees and ground. I saw my neighbors house outline 400 yds away through the trees and picked up some "Hot Spots" couldn't tell if they were possum, armadillo, rabbit or Milo. Now when we have a difference in temp during the day to night-I can see trees, rocks, bushes and make out the difference between animals -if within 50 yards. If using my NV D760 I can see what the animal is at several hundred yards.
Just saying gain do a lot of homework and if possible, try looking through some Thermals.
Good Luck
Let us know what you decided on and how it works for your application.
Len & Jill

 

[cantfixstupid]

Pulsar XM 50 THERMION is the minimum for what you are looking for around 4K after taxes, after that get ready to spend 6K or better. I have and XM 50 and I can tell the difference between a hog and a deer out to about 350 yards, I get a heat signature out to 1000 but me telling what it is, is a guess after 350. The best I have looked through is the Trijicon, you can count the hairs out to 500 yds with those, 8K before taxes.

 

[packgoatguy]

I shared this with a couple of my Tech Reps and they replied:

Burris:
Any of the Burris thermals will work well for the rabbits and coyotes at the ranges you're talking about, however 1,500y is right on the edge of the detection capability for most of the sub $3.5k units, and could be affected by conditions. That being said, any of them should be able to show a heat signature at near that distance, and it should be identifiable inside 1,000y.

The BTC series works as a simple handheld scanner until it is attached to a scope- at which point the combined system offers the familiarity of your dayscope's sight picture, but with a thermal image overlayed. Unfortunately there is no rangefinding capability built-into the BTC, but the BTS/BTH both have a stadiametric rangefinder, which in a skilled user's hands can be surprisingly accurate. A good bit of the accuracy concern when it comes to ranging can be mitigated through cartridge choice though, which is why our team tends to use the new 6 ARC cartridge.

Something that I've seen many folks do is spring for a better quality handheld scanner to detect targets, and use a weapon-mounted digital night vision scope to actually engage said target. Digital NV is significantly less expensive, and therefore easier to find with integrated LRF, which would significantly improve accuracy.

Pulsar:
The new Pulsar thermal clip on the Proton. Its light weight can be used as a monocular and then attach to the scope or a pic rail. They only retail around $3,200-$3,300 so fairly inexpensive. It'll get done what he needs done at that range and capabilities.

Thank you, that is some good info. I will add that in my state, "night vision" (light enhanced) is not legal for night-time coyotes or rabbits... but thermal is allowed. Otherwise, I think the suggestion about having a thermal scanner and a night vision scope combo could be viable.

 

[packgoatguy]

Pulsar XM 50 THERMION is the minimum for what you are looking for around 4K after taxes, after that get ready to spend 6K or better. I have and XM 50 and I can tell the difference between a hog and a deer out to about 350 yards, I get a heat signature out to 1000 but me telling what it is, is a guess after 350. The best I have looked through is the Trijicon, you can count the hairs out to 500 yds with those, 8K before taxes.

Thank you for your insight. I think it would be awesome to be able to tell the difference between a hog and a deer at 350 yards, however that is well beyond the capability that I need at this time. Primarily, I would need to be able to identify and shoot out to 100 yards for rabbits and coyotes. I added the additional range capability of 200 yards for coyotes, merely because that is the range at which they tend to hang out at behind my house. But, for 90% of our hunting needs, 100 yards will be adequate. As far as it goes for my longer range scouting needs, all I need the thermal to do is show the heat from an animal or object at longer distance. I dont need enough clarity to be able to identify the object at extended ranges, as this use will be exclusively during daylight hours, and done in conjunction with my spotting scope. Basically, I would scan the hillside with the thermal, then if I see a hint of heat that could be a critter, ill glass it in detail with my swaro. I just need the thermal to tell me where to focus my attention, not any detail beyond a couple hundred yards.

 

[packgoatguy]

I suggest that you do a lot more homework and look at the post on LRH as well as other forums. You may be seeing too many TV shows. What you are looking for is at least $5K. First thing is you get what you pay for. I have seen Thermals from $800 to $10K and there is a difference. If you look at all the U-Tubes they are the best videos and doctored so you there is never videos where the thermal is not looking good. If you get one and think that it will look like a $8-10K thermal you will be disappointed. I have a $3,500 handheld and went out last night looking for Oreo (our cat) and the entire woods were almost a wash due to the temp being the same all day because of rain on the trees and ground. I saw my neighbors house outline 400 yds away through the trees and picked up some "Hot Spots" couldn't tell if they were possum, armadillo, rabbit or Milo. Now when we have a difference in temp during the day to night-I can see trees, rocks, bushes and make out the difference between animals -if within 50 yards. If using my NV D760 I can see what the animal is at several hundred yards.
Just saying gain do a lot of homework and if possible, try looking through some Thermals.
Good Luck
Let us know what you decided on and how it works for your application.
Len & Jill

In your opinion, what would be a reasonable distance for me to expect to be able to clearly identify a rabbit or a cat sized animal with a thermal under normal conditions? Assuming more entry level gear rather than higher end equipment? Is 50 yards doable? Also, I would add that I would be hunting almost exclusively in fairly arid high desert country, lots of lava rock and sage brush. Low humidity. Primarily hunting during the winter months when there is several inches, if not feet of snow on the ground, during both day and night with ambient temps ranging from 40 down to zero. But mostly between 20 and 30 degrees f.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

In your opinion, what would be a reasonable distance for me to expect to be able to clearly identify a rabbit or a cat sized animal with a thermal under normal conditions? Assuming more entry level gear rather than higher end equipment? Is 50 yards doable? Also, I would add that I would be hunting almost exclusively in fairly arid high desert country, lots of lava rock and sage brush. Low humidity. Primarily hunting during the winter months when there is several inches, if not feet of snow on the ground, during both day and night with ambient temps ranging from 40 down to zero. But mostly between 20 and 30 degrees f.

I wish I could give a real definitive answer so that you don't spend more money that you need.
I CAN'T
There are so many options and newer technologies out there. I had you same question and your dilemma from a close friend that wanted to hunt at night. All my replies to him (good friend) were unacceptable to him. He thought a $5-800 Thermal was good for hunting hogs. He was only going to hunt a few times a year and didn't want to spend the money.
I told him that I already had $9K in Thermal and NV and just try/use what I had. He was insistant that he wanted his "OWN" hunting equipment. Needless to say he never hunted. I suggest that if you have a friend or someone that has Thermal/NV use those to see what you want. Then you can see if you are a dedicated Night Hunter. It is very expensive and along with purchasing all the $$$ in equipment "DO YOU HAVE THE HUNTING GROUNDS NOT JUST FOR THIS YEAR BUT FOR YEARS TO COME.

 

[Pdyson]

My next thermal will be the $4100 Bering Optics Super Yoter. Its got 640 resolution and a 4 yr warranty. But the 384 res hogster would also work well.
Take a good look at The Pulsar thermion too, it is probably the best thermal scope in class.

In theory a clip on can serve double duty as a scanner and scope but in practice a hand held is easier, if budget allows. Even with the no hassle quick release pic rail clamps it's not that easy. getting your optic locked into the same pic slot, in a hurry, in the dark, and quietly can be a chore. But it saves you money and it can be done. You'll want to practice it in the dark before you go hunting.

If you want to get a dedicated thermal scanner, The AGM TM19-384 Taipan thermal scanner is real popular here in Texas for night hunting predators and hogs as well. About $1500. No it's not cheap but buy once cry once. I lost money on an ATN optic.

 

[geo4061]

I will give you my best example. We had a $2500 scanner, a $4000 dollar thermal scope, and a $8000 thermal scope. We picked up a hit 100 yards in front of us with the scanner. We could not tell what it was. We could only guess. It was smaller than a deer. We put the $4000 scope on the white heat signature. It was smallish about bobcat size and had rounded ears. We were not positive but our best guess was a bobcat. Then we pulled out the $8000 unit. WOW not only was it a bobcat but it was sitting in the road licking his paws.

 

[quietzac]

Burris BTS 50 best imagery for the $$. Get a set of quick detach mounts and it can go quickly from hand held scanner to rifle scope. I can clearly differentiate hogs from deer out to 700 yards or so. 200 yards on yotes is doable but 200 yards in the dark is a long ways.

 

[Bucklowery]

Best advise I can give is rent one first. There are lots of places to rent for the weekend and then you get real world experience and you will know. They ship out and usually a three day for weekend and then can purchase or try another one

Thanks

Buck

 

[packgoatguy]

I will give you my best example. We had a $2500 scanner, a $4000 dollar thermal scope, and a $8000 thermal scope. We picked up a hit 100 yards in front of us with the scanner. We could not tell what it was. We could only guess. It was smaller than a deer. We put the $4000 scope on the white heat signature. It was smallish about bobcat size and had rounded ears. We were not positive but our best guess was a bobcat. Then we pulled out the $8000 unit. WOW not only was it a bobcat but it was sitting in the road licking his paws.

Good information! Thanks. Just curious, was this situation unique, perhaps weather limiting factors, or would you say it represents what a person should expect most days regardless of conditions?

 

[packgoatguy]

My next thermal will be the $4100 Bering Optics Super Yoter. Its got 640 resolution and a 4 yr warranty. But the 384 res hogster would also work well.
Take a good look at The Pulsar thermion too, it is probably the best thermal scope in class.

In theory a clip on can serve double duty as a scanner and scope but in practice a hand held is easier, if budget allows. Even with the no hassle quick release pic rail clamps it's not that easy. getting your optic locked into the same pic slot, in a hurry, in the dark, and quietly can be a chore. But it saves you money and it can be done. You'll want to practice it in the dark before you go hunting.

If you want to get a dedicated thermal scanner, The AGM TM19-384 Taipan thermal scanner is real popular here in Texas for night hunting predators and hogs as well. About $1500. No it's not cheap but buy once cry once. I lost money on an ATN optic.

I do like the specs on the super yoter, maybe the super yoter clip on. The hogster clip on looks very lightweight and compact, that is certainly appealing.