The reason we anneal brass cases.

Jeffpatton00

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Thanks JE. I too am in the camp of the socket/torch/metronome. I also know that as I grow and have more precision equipment, an annealer is already on the the list of upgrades.
I suggest those using a torch consider the salt bath method. Speaking as a former manufacturing engineer this method is pretty easy to keep under process control, so once you get the temp stabilized and your timing down, you should be good to go. Plus it's amazingly cost effective compared to some of the more sophisticated annealing equipment available.
 

J E Custom

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Along with Annealing and the benefits of consistent neck tension, there are things that need to be done for best performance. Accuracy is the sum of all process and to eliminate one reduces the total outcome.

Here is a Video that explains all of these elements and the benefit of each. test results are also shone.


Enjoy.

J E CUSTOM
 

Lynn Holifield

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Mountain Home, AR
Do you think they shoot the same brass until its useful life is gone or do you think they get brass sponsored to them so they can be at the top level?
Tubs has stated he gets 4 to 5 loads out of his brass before he trashes it. This is their method for getting the best accuracy. Competing at the highest level he has to do what gives him the best accuracy regardless of cost.
im not against annealing. I have an AMP back ordered. I’m buying knowing that it is not a cure all and that the amount it will help with my accuracy is very limited. Since brass is hard to get now and not knowing what the future brings I’ll take any help I can get. I just wish to point out that the amount it helps is very limited and for the seeker of ultimate accuracy it can never replace chunking hard brass and replacing with new. It’s all a matter of how important achieving being as accurate as the rifle/ shooter combo is capable of is to the individual.
 

Lynn Holifield

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Having a good understanding of what annealing does Metallurgically is important and the frequency of annealing is very important so this is a good explanation of what and why. It is a little long, but for a good understanding of the process I think it is worth watching.

If you are a reloader, it has good points to know.


J E CUSTOM
Appreciate the post. Good info.
 

lyotehunter

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waste of time and money. and you can read articles by brian litz and several others to confirm this. and with over 100 yrs of combined reloading in our group we have proven this out.
 

LongBomber

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Here is a Video that explains all of these elements and the benefit of each. test results are also shone.


Enjoy.

J E CUSTOM

It is a good video and data, the one question I have is he refers to his .306” expander as giving 0.002” neck tension, however I don’t see him measuring the inside case neck diamter.

Run over the expander the case neck will still spring back, in this case down, to some extent. It would be good information do know what the inside case neck diameter is after run over the expander.

There is also bullet diameter, which may not be exactly .308”. In the 6.5’s I have on hand I do see the hornady eld/amax bullets being a half thou larger diameter than a berger. I have never tried to sort by diameter, but maybe that would be something to play with as well. Since they are mass produced as well there must be some varience in diameter as there is in weight and bearing surface length.
 

J E Custom

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It is a good video and data, the one question I have is he refers to his .306” expander as giving 0.002” neck tension, however I don’t see him measuring the inside case neck diamter.

Run over the expander the case neck will still spring back, in this case down, to some extent. It would be good information do know what the inside case neck diameter is after run over the expander.

There is also bullet diameter, which may not be exactly .308”. In the 6.5’s I have on hand I do see the hornady eld/amax bullets being a half thou larger diameter than a berger. I have never tried to sort by diameter, but maybe that would be something to play with as well. Since they are mass produced as well there must be some varience in diameter as there is in weight and bearing surface length.

It is very hard to measure spring back unless you measure the outside of the case after sizing with a bushing and comparing the bushing size used. My preference is to test the accuracy like he did in the video for results. You may end up with .0005 spring back and end up at .0025 total neck tension .

Crimping is another way to control bullet release that use to be very popular.

Let the rifle tell you what is the best amount/bushing to use. in My opinion, the bushing method isn't the best way unless you turn the necks to a uniform thickness. If you don't turn the necks, a mandrel or expander type die is best. even though you risk offsetting the neck when firing due to neck thickness variations.

When going for all out accuracy, Weighing and diameter matching of "ALL" components is a must in my opinion.

J E CUSTOM
 

misterc01

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J E Custom

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waste of time and money. and you can read articles by brian litz and several others to confirm this. and with over 100 yrs of combined reloading in our group we have proven this out.
Not to argue, but I hear this all the time and for some it may be true. My philosophy is simple, the more you do to make everything consistent the better your accuracy. If you reach the point that you are satisfied then don't worry about any more accuracy. I don't have a combined reloading experience of 100 years, Just 60 years of my own successes and failures, and went from 1 MOA to best group for a hunting rifle of .034 thousandths by doing everything I could for consistency. It is not the norm to have everything shoot this well and excepting that the rifle will out shoot me gives me comfort and confidence, as a rifle builder I cant ever get the attitude that 'It'll be ok' or 'that's close enough' or I'm done.

Everyone has their accuracy standard and mine is to try and beat the best I have ever done.
Sorry, but nothing worthwhile is a waste of time in my opinion as long as there is room for improvement. If I ever shoot a 1 bullet diameter group .0000, I may stop trying but with more than one rifle I doubt it.

J E CUSTOM
 

BrentM

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Tubs has stated he gets 4 to 5 loads out of his brass before he trashes it. This is their method for getting the best accuracy. Competing at the highest level he has to do what gives him the best accuracy regardless of cost.
im not against annealing. I have an AMP back ordered. I’m buying knowing that it is not a cure all and that the amount it will help with my accuracy is very limited. Since brass is hard to get now and not knowing what the future brings I’ll take any help I can get. I just wish to point out that the amount it helps is very limited and for the seeker of ultimate accuracy it can never replace chunking hard brass and replacing with new. It’s all a matter of how important achieving being as accurate as the rifle/ shooter combo is capable of is to the individual.
Most can get 4 without having hardened necks. I think we have to keep it on par with the average guy who may or may not benefit. For me, I will run 15-20 reloads out of my brass. 2 issues, cracking and tension. I notice after 4-5 that the spring back on the brass is bad enough that tension is a problem. I also notice that after I anneal the brass will only go another 1-2 before the spring back seems to be a problem again. If you are shooting for 1.5-2 thou on tension then this is an issue. If you are at 4-5 thou and all the sudden at 2-3, it won't matter as much. It also doesn't matter if you crimp. So I guess I all sort of depends on what a person is doing and expecting.

For me, I have been this long enough I see the difference in brass life and consistency. I see lower sd over wider range of shots.
 

ButterBean

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Most can get 4 without having hardened necks. I think we have to keep it on par with the average guy who may or may not benefit. For me, I will run 15-20 reloads out of my brass. 2 issues, cracking and tension. I notice after 4-5 that the spring back on the brass is bad enough that tension is a problem. I also notice that after I anneal the brass will only go another 1-2 before the spring back seems to be a problem again. If you are shooting for 1.5-2 thou on tension then this is an issue. If you are at 4-5 thou and all the sudden at 2-3, it won't matter as much. It also doesn't matter if you crimp. So I guess I all sort of depends on what a person is doing and expecting.

For me, I have been this long enough I see the difference in brass life and consistency. I see lower sd over wider range of shots.
I not sure how you came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if you crimp as it very well does make a difference
 

BrentM

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I not sure how you came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if you crimp as it very well does make a difference
Crimping 30,000 5.56 cases lead to me to see no difference in tension. Brass life was not the issue in the neck but it was an issue in the web. I wasn't able to see any difference in crimped annealed brass vs non for sd. I shot 100 rounds for a test of each and they were exactly the same.
 

ButterBean

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Crimping 30,000 5.56 cases lead to me to see no difference in tension. Brass life was not the issue in the neck but it was an issue in the web. I wasn't able to see any difference in crimped annealed brass vs non for sd. I shot 100 rounds for a test of each and they were exactly the same.
I'm not doubting you a bit as I have never loaded 5.56 but I have loaded a slough of other stuff and crimping does make difference, I use the Lee FCD exclusively and have and have done a lot of testing and I assure you that any crimp will increase neck tension and powder ignition dwell time thus affecting accuracy SD and ES, I have a thread on crimping on this site about using the Lee FCD and I've changed a lot of folks mind about the concept, all apologies to the OP about getting sidetracked
 

BrentM

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I'm not doubting you a bit as I have never loaded 5.56 but I have loaded a slough of other stuff and crimping does make difference, I use the Lee FCD exclusively and have and have done a lot of testing and I assure you that any crimp will increase neck tension and powder ignition dwell time thus affecting accuracy SD and ES, I have a thread on crimping on this site about using the Lee FCD and I've changed a lot of folks mind about the concept, all apologies to the OP about getting sidetracked
I never said crimping doesn't affect tension or anything closely related to crimping not being effective. I said annealing doesn't have much if any effect on crimped cases. Annealing is for brass neck life and metal elasticity. Elasticity is the issue with tension when using bushing dies and non-crimp sizing dies.
 

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