The New Raptor is hatching.....

[wolffman]

Looks awesome! Can't wait til you say its a go for the orders cuz I will have my name on one for sure. Good luck on your hunt.

 

[ROBSTER]

Fiftydriver,
Love the new stock great looking gun.
Robster

 

[KNHOTROD]

Kirby, rememnber when you try to get in a hurry, things do not work out. The group I hang out with have tried the bedding thing with heat lamp, that is big no-no let it dry naturally with alluminum block bedded in stock. I learned that from Tom at Brown Precisions when I use to be really heavy into competion years ago. Another fine guy involed in industry that is down to earth and smart. Sounds like you sat down relaxed figured it out NOW you are ready to prove she is the one you dreamed about. I love the double scope mounts another one,our group that shoots big calibers does on all rifles. Never can be to safe, if you think something might go wrong you are right it will. I believe she will really light up your eyes on the groups it will shoot now.

As always keep us informed and dreaming..

Ps: Nice Gun Porn, That stock really changes it sex appeal.

 

[3fingervic]

Kirby, I'm new to the LR game. I've been following the progress, and I'm very impressed.

I just mounted my first scope on a .300wm. I was wondering when more than two rings are needed?

 

[linksmechanic]

Sorry for the lag time guys, had to get some work done in the shop and weather has kept me off the range for any more load development.

It has now warmed up here in Montana which always means wind and a mess from the snow that had fallen. Still, I was able to do some velocity testing at the shop late this week and wanted to offer some of the results with you.

Temps were right at 40 degrees. These are with the 300 gr SMK seated to roughly 3.670" OAL. The first powder I tested was Retumbo. Test proceedure was to load up three rounds, fire them over the chrono to check velocity and get an idea of velocity spreads. Once I found a max working load I would then shoot a 5 shot string of that load checking the velocity string. When done with one powder, roughly 25 rounds or so, the barrel would be completely cleaned, relubed and start on a new powder for testing.

Again, first powder up was Retumbo. These are velocity tests only, no accuracy results, just to darn windy for any meaningful long rangne work.

95.0 gr......................................2785 fps
96.0 gr......................................2821 fps
97.0 gr......................................2886 fps
98.0 gr......................................2930 fps
99.0 gr......................................2967 fps
100.0 gr....................................2975 fps

I stopped at 100.0 gr simply because the load density was getting higher then I like. No powder crushing at this point getting close. The cases I used for these tests had just been formed using the corn meal method of fireforming so I was full pressure forming while getting some load data.

I took 5 rounds and loaded them up at 100.0 gr and chronoed them. Here were the velocity recordings:

2983 fps
2983 fps
2961 fps
2972 fps
2953 fps

30 fps extreme spread.

I quickly realized that my theory about the veritical stringing at long range was due to the fireformed cases seemed to be correct.

Just to prove this I took five rounds of high pressure once fired cases and repeated the chrono test with the same load:

2973 fps
2978 fps
2977 fps
2988 fps
2975 fps

15 fps extreme spread.

Cut her in half with just using once fired high pressure cases, proving my theory.

After seeing this I started wondering if the Ramshot powder would perform the same way and offer a bit more velocity so I cleaned the bore completely and started the test over using Ramshot Magnum with fully formed cases. For this test I used a load of 105.0 gr which on my first velocity test at 18 degrees, averaged 3011 fps. At 40 degrees here are the results for 5 shots:

3030 fps
3049 fps
3034 fps
3041 fps
3057 fps

27 fps extreme spread and averaged roughly 30 fps more velocity with only 22 degrees change in temps. I was very happy with the performance level, just not the consistancy or stability and I suspect these numbers were much tighter then what I was getting in the cornmeal formed cases.

After testing with this powder again, I again cleaned the bore and was really suprised at the difference in carbon fouling between Retumbo and Magnum. There was MUCH more with Magnum.

Seeing this and also seeing how the case filled up with Retumbo pretty quickly, I decided to give H-1000 a try and see what happened. Here are the velocity results:

96.0 gr...................................2835 fps
97.0 gr...................................2866 fps
98.0 gr...................................2935 fps
99.0 gr...................................2971 fps
100.0 gr.................................3045 fps

Again, I stopped at 100.0 gr which was right at 100% load density. Loaded up five fully formed cases and checked for velocity spreads:

2995 fps
2957 fps
2987 fps
2997 fps
2982 fps

40 fps extreme spread....... Not good.

I went back to Retumbo again, another 5 at 100.0 grains to see they would maintain the best extreme spreads consistantly. They did, another 5 rounds held right at 16 fps spreads, nearly identical to the other five and averged withing a couple fps of the first five as well. I figured this was my load but there was just a hint more ejector ring mark on the case head they I wanted to see. Just for the heck of it I loaded up five more rounds with 100.0 gr Retumbo but this time seated them to roughly 3.650" OAL, 20 thou deeper then I had been using. This is roughly 20 thou off the lands.

I was surpised to see the chrono results:

2981 fps
2980 fps
2983 fps
2981 fps
2981 fps

Three of the five were identical and extreme spread was only 3 fps total!!!! I had found the load I would test for long range accuracy. I will admit, I am still learning about my Hybrid throat and its preferences as far as seating depth and what it likes. I was also suprised at the stark difference in velocity spreads from one seating depth to another. This does make it very easy to see differences however.

So I loaded up 50 rounds at this load level and will take it out and do some long range work. Its pretty windy today again but may go out and try it anyway.

I was hoping for +3000 fps and I certainly could get that with any of these powders but consistancy just was not quite there. Maybe it would be at this seating depth but as time is running short before the hunt, I need to get on the range and off the load development. Averaging 2982 fps is not all that bad, especially with a 3.650" OAL seating depth.

Just to see, I figured what the load density would be if seated to 3.990"..... I would go from around a 102% load density at this short overall length to between 92 to 94% load density. Retumbo has proven capable of allowing 100% load density in this chambering so likely I would be able to add another 6-7 grains of powder in a long throated 338 AX and again, I would be amazed if it would not get near of top 3100 fps even with Retumbo. Not sure what it would do long seated with Ramshot Magnum but over 3100 fps obviously.

I plan on taking the gongs up with me on the long range testing. IF I can figure out how to post some video I will get it up here for you guys to check out. I realize most of this has been just me talking, it would be nice to offer you some visuals as well!!!

Kirby, about your theory on vertical stringing. After you full pressure fire form are you neck sizing only or full length sizing and have found different stringing effects with either type of sizing? Also you mentioned: "after I lubed the bore" Does this mean you clean and then oil you bores? If it does have you found any benefit to oiling the bores vs. shooting them "dry". Thanks.

 

[Fiftydriver]

KNHOTROD,

I use heat lamps to warm bedding on 50 McMillans a year and about half that many Manner stocks and never have any problems at all. The HS just behaved differently this time.

 

[Fiftydriver]

3fingervic,

If your not using a muzzle brake, there really is no need to use more then two rings, especially using tactical rings on a rail base. Heavy scopes, high recoiling chamberings and muzzle brakes are the hardest on keeping things in a fixed position. When I say heavy recoiling, generally 338 cal and up.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Linksmechanic,

I always FL size my wildcat cases. THey have such a large baring surface to the chamber and min taper that you WILL get into stick chambering and extractions unless you FL size. That said, I generally only bump the shoulders 1 to 2 thou, just enough to chamber properly in the rifle and absolutely no more then that.

I am nearly 100% sure the vertical stringing was caused by a combination of the stock and the rail base sliding a bit on the receiver. Both of those issues are history!!!

In spite of what many say, a barrel should be lubed after cleaning and before firing the first shot through a clean bore. I have actually tested this by scoping a bore after shooting that first round. With a properly cleaned bore that is completely broken in, if you fire a round on a dry barrel, yes it may hit on point of impact but it WILL copper foul the barrel. That is a simple fact.

No matter the quality of the bore finish, if you force a bullet over a dry bore surface, you will get copper residue left on the bore.

Comparing that to a barrel that has been cleaned and then lubed properly and then fire that first round, copper fouling is all but non existant. Perhaps its the machinist in me but one example would be me trying to machine a fine match barrel without using any cutting oil....... Would not turn out very well.

Some will say that fouling the barrel before going to the field leaves abrasive carbon fouling in the barrel that will also absorb moisture. To that I would as do you clean after every shot to prevent any carbon fouling and I have yet to see a barrel, even one that gets very wet have any problems as long as its cleaned properly after it has been wet.

The easiest thing to do is use a hair drier to heat the barrel so its warm to the touch of your hand. That heat of the barrel will cause all moisture on the barrel and in the bore to evaporate so thats really not an issue either.

My professional opinion, a barrel that has been cleaned should never be fired without lubing the bore first. I have never seen anything to make me think or recommend otherwise and I have seen plenty to back up my recommendations.

 

[captacademy]

The Raptor is sure coming out well with each day!

 

[liltank]

Linksmechanic,

My professional opinion, a barrel that has been cleaned should never be fired without lubing the bore first. I have never seen anything to make me think or recommend otherwise and I have seen plenty to back up my recommendations.

Every sniper that I have ever talked to online or in person has recommended a dry bore. They say they clean them down to bare metal and will leave a light layer of oil for storage. Before using they run a couple patches down with alcohol on the patch to strip the oil out. One even said that Smith & Wesson taught his team that they clean to bare metal, and fire one shot to foul before storage so when the time arises to take that critical shot their rifle is already dry and fouled. Just a thought, and wanted to share my experience. The other issue is hydraulic pressure in the barrel due to expansion of fluid due to the pressures of the bullet going through the bore. I guess it is what you prefer and are taught.

Tank

 

[Fiftydriver]

Liltank,

Yes, and their first shot will likely be on the money and they WILL have copper fouling from that first shot as well. My recommendations are for those of us on LRH who are long range target shooters, long range varmint hunters and long range big game hunters, not military snipers.

I would agree, if your first shot HAS to be on the money in a life or death situation, it would be best to shoot out of a dry bore but none of us here are ever in that situation.

To get the longest string of accurate shots, you will be better served to shoot a cleaned bore with a thin layer of lube in the bore to prevent fouling.

Another thing to consider is the chamberings that those snipers are shooting in their rifles. VERY low intensity rounds with projos that have relatively small baring surface and in relatively slow test barrels. About as non intense of a situation for bore fouling as you can get.

A 308 with a 175 gr SMK at 2650 fps out of a 1-10 or 1-11 twist barrel is pretty darn mild. There will still be some bore fouling firing first shot from a dry bore but when you compare it to say my 338 AX with a 300 gr SMK loaded to +3000 fps which probablyhas three times the baring surface to the bore you can see my point.

Or even say a 6.5 WSM with a 142 gr SMK loaded to 3100 fps in a 1-8 twist barrel.

Again, Snipers have to play by a different set of rules. We have the luxury of being able to foul out barrels before we have to use them, they often can not. Many of us like to think we are snipers which is kind of silly and comparing the two different types of shooting practices really does not make sense.

After all, everything the military does and teaches about firearm care is gospel!!! LOL

Ask 100 smiths their opinion and likely you will get that many replies. To each their own. I am just offering factual results I have tested and proven by scoping bores after first shot out of a cleaned bore and also checking the amount of fouling after a 10 shot string starting with a dry bore and lubed bore. The difference is certainly measurable.

 

[nddodd]

Kirby, not to get off subject of that awesome rifle of yours. Would kroil be good to lube the barrel with after cleaning if not what would you suggest.

Thanks,
Nathan

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Interesting... my experience when cleaning down to bare metal is it will take several shots regardless if you lube or nor not to settle in the barrel (factory barrels). In the past, when I "thought" I was cleaning to bare metal and actually wasn't, the first shot was usually right in there.

Now I will clean to bare metal and lube with Gun Juice right after. Since I don't have the luxury of shooting out the back door where I live, I have to wait until I get to the range or the in the field to foul it and I use a lighter load for that.

Kirby, I think you're right. If you ask a 100 different people, you'll get a 100 different ways using different products etc to clean and foul, etc.

I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest. Very inovative stuff. Not sure I'll ever have need for one of these beautiful beasts, but it's very cool watching the progress.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[jmden]

Fifty,

Not to derail here, but this is an interesting detail you've brought up here. I also wondered what exactly you meant by 'lube'.

nddodd and MR ask about Kroil and GJ for 'lube'. Would either of these work for what you are describing? What do you use and your 'procedure'?

I've just been using GJ as the last thing I pass through the barrel after cleaning and then (when I remember) another pass of it before first shot.

Thanks,

Jon