The Berger 300 gr Hybrid Gen 2

[Shawn Carlock]

I have just finished initial testing of the gen 2 Berger Hybrid 300gr .338 bullet. I have copied my findings from the gen 1 bullet and comparisons to the 300 SMK below for you to see. I will say that the gen 2 bullet is a much improved bullet over the gen 1 design and alot more what I had expected from Berger. The gen 1 bullets had issues when a certain velocity/twist threshold was crossed (specifically accuracy when totally out the door).
Now for the good news, the gen 2 bullets I tested show excellent baring surface consistancy running +/-.001" for a whole box (this makes measuring a waste of time and give those without a micrometer seater more consistent OAL). In initial testing much like the gen1 bullets the gen 2 bullets ran at a higher velocity than the 300 SMK at the same relative pressures for an additional 35-50 fps. Typical of most Berger bullets I have worked with they are sensitive to the amount of jump to the lands in terms of accuracy. This required a little extra lod developement work but in the end once the correct length was cornered they shot extremely well. Shooting in the .2's and 3's at 100 yards was not a big trick in the standard 338 Edge (2860 fps) and the +P version (2989 fps).
Looking at the below data you will see the measurements of the gen 2 bullet differ from the gen 1 bullet some and this may affect the BC slightly but it might not at all. I am planning on some long range BC testing and some low speed expansion testing (1600-1200 fps) in the near future. I will keep you guys updated when I can. At this point we are looking seriously at using the gen 2 bullet for hunting this next year, I have high hopes and looks to be a winner.

05-18-10

SPECS vs. SIERRA MATCHKING

SMK BERGER gen 1

OVERALL LENGTH 1.718" 1.824"

BARING SURFACE .649" .571"

DIAMETER MAX BARING .3385" .3385

DIAMETER MIN BARING .3385" .3381"

BARING SURFACE ES .019" .006"

BASE TO FORWARD BARING .897" .891

BOAT TAIL LENGTH .240" .316"

OAL RELATIVE TO LANDS .000" +.126"

WEIGHT AVE 300.0 gr 300.2 gr


NOTES:

BERGER 300 GR HYBRID
OAL IN CANYON RIFLE # 0051 3.000" W COMP #1 TO LANDS OR 3.920" OAL

HEAD SPACE OF FIRED CASE 3.019"

LOADED TO AN OAL OF 3.000" W COMP # 1
H1000

90.0 GR 2801 FPS
91.0 GR 2812 FPS
92.0 GR 2861 FPS
93.0 GR 2873 FPS FAINT EJECTOR MARK, SHOT WELL
94.0 GR DNS
95.0 GR DNS
96.0 GR DNS


+P TEST RIFLE – OAL to lands 3.268" or OAL of 4.200", barely in the neck of the case
Loaded: H1000 an OAL w comp # 1 to 3.267"
95.0 gr. 2807 fps
96.0 gr. 2824 fps
97.0 gr. 2849 fps
98.0 gr. 2892 fps
99.0 gr. 2930 fps
100.0 gr. 2969 fps
101.0 gr. 3003 fps faint ejector mark
102.0 gr. 3030 fps visible ejector mark

Loaded 101 gr for test, accuracy was horrible 3-4" at 100 yards. ES 12 fps and 3003 ave velocity.
Loaded 96.0 gr and shot 3/8" at 100 yards
Loaded 100 gr and shot < 3/8" with 1-11 twist Krieger barrel at 3052 fps
Loaded 101 gr and shot <1/2 moa at 100 yards with + P McM and 300 SMK's
05-21-10
Shot some test loads in the tube rifle Hart 1-10 @ 3000 fps ,group size was better than the 9 twist but still 1.50-1.75" at 100 yards.
Reduced the load from 100 to 98 grains and a velocity of 2900 fps, groups the same.
Reduced load from 98 to 96 grains and a velocity of 2800 fps, instantly shot under .50 moa.
Canyon Rifle # 0051
Loaded 93.0 grains of H1000 and an OAL of 3.995", shot exceptionally well .247" and .261" at 100 yards. Velocity was 2868 fps.



07-27-10
Shot some 5 shot groups after hearing complaint from customers on group size with the 300 gr Hybrid. Shot 6, 5 shot groups in 2 rifles # 0051 and # 0072, all groups would put 3 and sometimes 4 bullets in the same hole but 1 or 2 bullets in every group would hit ½- ¾" from the group. If 2 shots left the group they usually hit together???? Also dad tried in his "Canyon Pistol" and "Black Widow" rifle both in standard 338 Edge, neither gun would shoot under 3/4" with any combination of powder charge (2600-2850 fps) or oal (+.020" to -.080"). All 4 guns would shoot the 300 SMK with a variety of loads from .180" to .392". None of the 300 SMK loads went as bad as ½".


03-29-11

300 GR HYBRID GEN 2 TESTING

SMK BERGER BERGER
GEN 1 GEN 2

OVERALL LENGTH 1.718" 1.824" 1.817"

BARING SURFACE .649" .571" .584"

DIAMETER MAX BARING .3385" .3385 .3380"

DIAMETER MIN BARING .3385" .3381" .3376"

BARING SURFACE ES .019" .006" .001" (VERY GOOD)

BASE TO FORWARD BARING .897" .891 .881"

BOAT TAIL LENGTH .240" .316" .297"

OAL RELATIVE TO LANDS .000" +.126" +.108"

WEIGHT AVE 300.0 gr 300.2 gr 300.1 gr



LOADED FOR THE +P CANYON RIFLE

OAL 4.126" OR 3.193" (COMP #2), CCI 250, H1000

95.0 GR 2861 FPS
96.0 GR 2886 FPS
97.0 GR 2909 FPS
98.0 GR 2942 FPS
99.0 GR 2989 FPS

SHOT 99.0 GR 5 ROUND GROUP – 2982 FPS AVE / ES 8 FPS ½ MOA EASY ENOUGH AT -.000" OFF LANDS

LOADED FOR # 0051 RIFLE (STANDARD 338 EDGE)

OAL 3.949" OR 3.024" (COMP # 2), CCI 250, H1000

93.0 GRAINS AVE VEL 2930 FPS / ES 12 FPS

GROUPS .2 - .3" @ 100 YARDS



03-30-11

LOADED TEST LOADS FOR #0051 CANYON RIFLE

93.0 GR H1000, CCI250, OAL 3.024" W COMP # 2

OAL TESTING 3 SHOT GROUPS @ 100 YARDS:

GROUP ES

+.010" .992" 7
+.005" .844" 25
+.000" .510" 6
-.005" .311" 12
-.010" .779" 19


LOADED FOR +P TEST RIFLE

99.0 GR H1000, CCI 250'S, OAL 3.193" W COMP # 2

GROUPS VELOCITY ES

.752" 2961 FPS 14


LOADED FOR +P TEST RIFLE

98.0 GR H1000, CCI 250'S, OAL 3.193" W COMP # 2

GROUPS VELOCITY ES

.591" 2923 FPS 6
.486" 2924 FPS 7

FINAL LOADS

92.0 GR H1000, OAL 3.019" (-005") IN # 0051, 2835 AVE FPS / ES 12 FPS .292"
ZEROED #51 WITH THIS LOAD @ 100 YARDS

98.0 GR H1000, OAL 3.188" (-005") IN +P, 2968 AVE FPS / ES 9 FPS .348"
ZEROED +P WITH THIS LOAD @ 100 YARDS

 

[jmden]

Very interesting and good news, Shawn. Thank you for that report and please keep us updated.

 

[Broz]

Thanks Shawn, Really looking forward to your opinion after you shoot at distance and your expansion tests.

Jeff

 

[B23]

Shawn, do you know if this is/was a "prototype" or the Gen II that will be released to the puplic?

 

[sp6x6]

Shawn, Thanks for the detailed post, very good.I am working with the gen 1 right now in my norma, I also had good luck at .005 off. You post such good info on a EDGE I wish I had one. Thanks Shawn 6x6

 

[JeffVN]

Thanks for the information Shawn.

Since shawn was doing his testing during the same timeframes Erick Skecker was saying they were still in development, I assume he was one of there test shooters. I hope they have someone testing from a 338/408 or Snipetac who can give stability and accuracy results from velocities at or above 3,200 fps.

Jeffvn

 

[Shawn Carlock]

My impression from Eric was that they made jacket / bullet changes and got them coming off the line like they wanted, then they sent myself and a couple of other guys some preproduction samples to test at speed etc before pulling the trigger on a full production run. It was my understanding that barring any negative results that these would be the production version of the bullet. I need to rebarrel my 338 Allen Mag so I was not able to test above 3000 fps. Eric had bullets in the hands of at least one other that tested to 3100 fps with nearly identical results as me. Will they work at 3300 fps? I imagine so but can't say for sure. I may get on the stick and retube the Allen to see. It is my opinion that they are good to go for 99.9% of everyone else.

 

[Eric Stecker]

First, I'd like to thank Shawn for his involvement in this project. There are few people who have his level of both capability and experience in this area. Asking him to test these bullets was a no brainer and I'm happy that he excepted.

The bullets that Shawn was sent were made with our standard process with the one exception being that we made only enough for testing rather than a larger quantity run. Given his results and the results from our other tester we have started production of a larger quantity of jackets. I can't guarantee a delivery date on the bullets but I do expect that we will have bullets available in larger numbers in May.

The other tester did shoot these bullets up to 3,100 fps but was unable to shoot them at higher velocities due to poor weather. He is loaded up to shoot them in a case that can push the 300 gr over 3,300 fps so we will soon learn how they work at this velocity as well.

Admittedly our biggest concern was getting them to work well at the highest velocities achievable with the 338 Lapua Mag given this cases popularity and its heavy use by the military. Since we have achieved this goal we will move forward with large scale production.

I will of course be pleased if the bullets work at higher velocities but if for some reason they do not, we won't hold up production any further. I know that all things have their limits and at some point this bullet will not function well but my fingers are crossed that this point is high enough to satisfy those who want to shoot it at extremely high velocity.

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from doing so but when I think about a 300 gr bullet traveling at 3,300 fps I can't help but think "crap that's fast". If it works, great but resolving performance in the 338 Lapua Mag was our goal.

Regards,
Eric

 

[6hangingc]

sp6x6 ......pm sent

 

[jmden]

Good news, Eric, and thanks for keeping us informed.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't generated more interest than it has...interesting...

 

[Eric Stecker]

Jmden,

I can appreciate that many 338 cal shooters are tired of hearing us talk about it and are ready for us to prove it by shipping bullets. This situation has gone on long enough and it is time for us to either put up or shut up.

To that point, we will start making our first larger run by the end of next week. The first shooters to get bullets will be those who returned our original version because it did not work for them. After all of these shooters are satisfied we will start shipping against our back orders. The oldest orders will ship first and we will go down the line from there.

I will admit that the firt large run will not be enough to satisfy all of the back orders. We had ordered only enough copper for our testing plus an initial large run should the testing be successful. At the time we had far fewer of these bullets on back order than we do today.

We have already ordered more than enough copper to satisfy all the back orders plus put a significant amount of the shelf. This amount of copper will also allow us to make jackets for the 250 gr Hybrid bullet. In the next two months we will be up and rolling with both weights.

I spoke with the other tester today who had a chance to shoot the Gen 2 bullets at 3,350 fps. He shot them from 400 yards all the way out to 1,200 yards and had excellent results. He was getting 1/2 MOA or less out to 1,000 yards. At 1,000 yards groups would get up to 3/4 MOA or less but at that distance and with such a large case he relayed that this level of performance is better than any other 338 cal bullets he's used in that gun.

I know that all of this is still just talk and I am looking forward to getting these bullets out the door soon so everyone can experience these results themselves.

Regards,
Eric

 

[fatrack]

102 grains of H-1000? Wow, I wouldn't have thought you could get that much into an edge case. Is this is an old batch of H-1000?

I was working on some loads lately with H-1000 and started at 88 grains and quit at 90 grains.

 

[yama49]

Shawn,

I was wondering if you shot any groups 40 -50 thou off lands, for us with 3.8 wyatt mags. Was wondering if the accuracy is still there with the berger. I have heard they like to be seated close to the lands. Thx

 

[jmden]

102 grains of H-1000? Wow, I wouldn't have thought you could get that much into an edge case. Is this is an old batch of H-1000?

I was working on some loads lately with H-1000 and started at 88 grains and quit at 90 grains.

That's in Shawn's +P version...