The 6,5 x 63 Messner Mag.

[Varberger757]

Since the 6,5 is getting more and more popular in the USA I'd like to give some input from the other side of the Atlantic. Sometimes it seems to me, that you are concentrating too much and almost exclusively on American products and forgetting about those from other parts of the world. Here in Europe the 6,5 rounds aren't popular any more with the exception of Norway, Sweden an Austria. Scandinavian 6,5x55 is well known in America, but it has its limitations due to the use of heavy bullets. The same is true for the continental 6,5x57, and both are fading away. We have some promising new products designed for high velocities when using high bullet weights from 140gr - . My example today is the very powerful 6,5x63 Messner Mag. The 6,5 Messner Mag. was constructed by a famous French guy, Monsieur Messner from Alsace. He used the 9,3x64 as parent case and gave it a new shoulder of 30* and an optimized case - head. The 6,5 Messner case takes 88gr of H2O. Barrel twist is 1 : 8,5 and stabilizes heavier bullets perfectly, 140 – gr. Mainly invented and constructed for mountain hunting the 6,5x63 Mess Mag delivers its highest performance already with a 60cm / 23,5' barrel, and it's recognized for its high accuracy .
A 140gr bullet has an MV of 1001m/s or 3285fps (no max. load), 156gr MV of 940m/s or 3083fps. I'm sure about that the 160gr Matrix would do great too. It should be the perfect 6,5 mm for hunting from ridge to ridge IMO. Perfectly suited for long-range hunting on species like chaumois, all other kinds of sheep, goat, plainsgame in Africa and your American Pronghorn.

 

[Jud96]

It sounds like a great cartridge, but it would be hard finding brass and components such as dies and reamers over here in the States for it. We have many high performance 6.5s as well including the .264 WIN Mag, 6.5 Sherman, 6.5 WSM, 6.5 SAUM, and a few others and all prove to be excellent cartridges just like the 6,5 x 63 Messner Mag you have in Europe. I'm sure if equipment and components were available for this round, then we would surely see them used over here! It sounds quite interesting! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on a cartridge I was unfamiliar with!

As for us using exclusively American products, many of us over here use Lapua brass which originated in Finland and their bullets, as well as the 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge. The 7mm and 8mm Mausers have also been used for general hunting in the U.S. as well. The Vihtavuori powders are also used here by many reloaders too. Norma brass and cartridges originated from Sweden and I personally have a long range rifle chambered for .308 Norma Magnum, a European designed round, and use Norma brass. You will find that many Americans do use non-domestic equipment and components ranging from optics, rifles, ammunition, cartridges, powders, bullets, and many other things as well.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Well. I think its GREAT that someone built something from the 9.3×64 Brenneke. Maybe that will induce someone into making brass for a reasonable price. I shoot the 9.3×64 B and regret going with the round simply because brass is so scarce.
However, scarcity has no reflection on what an awesome case design it is. From my 21.5" barrel I get 2750 fps with the 250 gr TSX bullet and 2650 fps with the 285 gr bullets. Execpt for the 285 gr Hornady sp which seems to have a rather sticky jacket. But the Lapua Mega and Norma Orynx give me 2650 with less than max book loads.
I had a 9.3×62 Mauser that I should have hung onto.
The Mark X 98 Mauser action on my 9.3×64 was made in Yugoslavia. And my all time co /favorite rifles are CZ. .

Often time European shooting items are more money for the same quality we can get in The States. So there is little reason to shop overseas. And really, I can't see what this new round will do that the 264 hasn't been doing for over 50 years. .
But still, I hope to see this new round take off.

 

[Varberger757]

It sounds like a great cartridge, but it would be hard finding brass and components such as dies and reamers over here in the States for it. We have many high performance 6.5s as well including the .264 WIN Mag, 6.5 Sherman, 6.5 WSM, 6.5 SAUM, and a few others and all prove to be excellent cartridges just like the 6,5 x 63 Messner Mag you have in Europe. I'm sure if equipment and components were available for this round, then we would surely see them used over here! It sounds quite interesting! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on a cartridge I was unfamiliar with!

As for us using exclusively American products, many of us over here use Lapua brass which originated in Finland and their bullets, as well as the 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge. The 7mm and 8mm Mausers have also been used for general hunting in the U.S. as well. The Vihtavuori powders are also used here by many reloaders too. Norma brass and cartridges originated from Sweden and I personally have a long range rifle chambered for .308 Norma Magnum, a European designed round, and use Norma brass. You will find that many Americans do use non-domestic equipment and components ranging from optics, rifles, ammunition, cartridges, powders, bullets, and many other things as well.

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful and and informed response. Sometimes it's good and necessary to communicate like we do. Over very long distances, but with passion for the exactly same things, it's just great. It gives us the unique opportunity to contribute and benefit simultaneously. I have to admit that you've got a good taste concerning calibers and cartridges, because the 308NM is also one of my favorites. As soon as my 300WM is worn out, won't take that long anymore, I'll switch over to 308NM. Same performance, but with longer and more appropriate neck, and BTW also much better looking. At the same time we ensure that this great round won't fade away completely and disappear.

 

[sable tireur]

Varberger757,

Many American shooters/reloaders are experienced with European cartridge brass. Many years ago, 9.3x64 Brenneke was available through several distributors here which we used ourselves in order to have that chamber for safari rifles and the brass for wildcat variations. We necked it up and down as most cases are these days, experimenting with powder and bullet combinations. Improving the shoulder and case taper was usually a given.

The difference that we noticed most was the rim diameter being non-standard for our (US) uses and necessitated bolt modifications before completing the rifles. The 9.3x64 used a 0.496" rim while the 8x68S and 6.5x68 used the 0.512" rim. This wasn't a big deal when we were making our actions and bolts but became harder when only commercial actions were required.

The 8x68S with the 6.5 version were used by Dave Tooley for his Boo-Boo series of cartridges. Both cartridges are excellent by themselves but start to attain more American standards with the improved versions.

One of my favorites from building safari rifles was the 9.5 x 66 SE vom Hofe. It came from the factory with an improved shoulder and body taper with a rebated rim and larger body similar to the current RUM cases. This was a perfect improvement to the venerable .375 H&H.

Anyway, now most of these cases have to be ordered through Huntington's or I have a couple of friends who will bring me some once fired when they travel over to the US. The biggest difference between using the European and Scandinavian brass compared to domestic is the price. But with the carpet baggers like Nosler leading the charge, Americans are being forced to use the more expensive but available brass. It certainly cuts down on the ordering of large amounts of brass but with hunters, you just get used to using less brass more times.

Regards.

 

[Jud96]

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful and and informed response. Sometimes it's good and necessary to communicate like we do. Over very long distances, but with passion for the exactly same things, it's just great. It gives us the unique opportunity to contribute and benefit simultaneously. I have to admit that you've got a good taste concerning calibers and cartridges, because the 308NM is also one of my favorites. As soon as my 300WM is worn out, won't take that long anymore, I'll switch over to 308NM. Same performance, but with longer and more appropriate neck, and BTW also much better looking. At the same time we ensure that this great round won't fade away completely and disappear.

I really like the .308 Norma cartridge. It can be expensive and difficult finding brass for, but it is a less common round and I like oddball cartridges haha. I recently ordered a .300 Winchester simply because there is so much data and components for it and I want it to be my primary long range hunting rifle. I much prefer the neck and looks of the .308 Norma as well, but logistics make the .300WM a more economical and smart choice for an all around hunting rifle. I also enjoy talking to others from different locales and countries simply because without today's advanced technology and this great site, we could not achieve this or have this oppurtuntity.

 

[Varberger757]

Varberger757,
The difference that we noticed most was the rim diameter being non-standard for our (US) uses and necessitated bolt modifications before completing the rifles. The 9.3x64 used a 0.496" rim while the 8x68S and 6.5x68 used the 0.512" rim. This wasn't a big deal when we were making our actions and bolts but became harder when only commercial actions were required.
The 8x68S with the 6.5 version were used by Dave Tooley for his Boo-Boo series of cartridges. Both cartridges are excellent by themselves but start to attain more American standards with the improved versions.
One of my favorites from building safari rifles was the 9.5 x 66 SE vom Hofe. It came from the factory with an improved shoulder and body taper with a rebated rim and larger body similar to the current RUM cases. This was a perfect improvement to the venerable .375 H&H. Regards.

Thanks a lot for your post! Both the 9,3x64 and 8x68S were constructed to fit the traditional standard M98 - action, and they do perfectly. But I do know very well that the rim of both may cause issues when using commercial actions as Rem 700 and others. Messner himself admits that this is kind of a disadvantage for his otherwise great cartridge. All his new constructions like the tremendous 8,5 (.338) Messner Mag. or .375 VC are using the "traditional" 375 H&H rim. Of course rebated and belt-less. I've heard some rumors that Messner sooner or later will release both a very powerful 7mm/.284 and 8mmS/.323 based on the standard rim, but with a totally new constructed and optimized case. Not only I'm looking forward when this story becomes reality. It was funny when you mentioned the extremely powerful 9,5x66 SE, because I think that the 7x66 SE, which gave the parent case, is one of the best 7mm Mags ever made. I have given some descriptions of this great round here on LRH, but as you might know ... BTW, I didn't know anything about Dave Tooley's Boo - Boo series, so there is something new and interesting to learn every day.

 

[scottishkat]

Thanks for the post Varberger757 the 6.5's are becoming more popular in the US now I own 5 now. I like the 6.5-06. 3280 fps with a 140 is very fast.

Does anybody know what velocity is with 6.5WSM with 140's?

I have been hearing really good reports about it. I would not think it's that fast and I know the 264 win mag and SAUM doesn't get there.

I think my next project will be a 6.5SAUM I just wish they had better brass for it. With the high sectional densities of the 6.5 bullets do we really need to generate that much velocity with a 6.5mm. A 140gr 6.5mm bullet (especially in bonded core) doesn't seem to be a very good bullet for long range hunting. Some of the premium fragmenting bullets maybe.

Good luck and shoot straight.

Bob

 

[hypersonic]

Seems like an interesting cartridge. I am a 6.5 fan currently but with only one 260 rem in the safe. Hopefully one day I will find a used Rem Sendero in 264 win mag that I can re barrel for more reach on deer and similar sized game. I always thought that a 6.5x 57 would be an excellent cartridge to build a rifle on, and with the powders we currently have it should be pretty close to a 6.5-06. Sad to hear it is falling by the weigh side.

 

[.358 NM]

One of few movies around about 6.5 Messnermag.

 

[Varberger757]

Nice film, even when the test-shooting was disturbed by strong winds. All shooting he did, was done with an ordinary Austrian factory rifle named Voere. These rifles hold high standards and have a very reasonable price. Factory loads are so far available from one French company (lost the name) and two German, Wolfgang Romey and Sax. Head stamped brass comes from Horneber / Germany. BTW, nice grouping with the monolithic GPA - bullets, 3 shots / 11mm, that's about 0.3 MOA, and seven shots grouped at ca. 1 MOA. The tester said that he himself has used a rifle in 6,5 MM over several years and has been very pleased with results. Being unbraked or without suppressor the recoil of this particular magnum round seems to be low.
Conclusion IMO: nice and worth the effort. gun)

 

[sable tireur]

I started looking through some of my older notes and came upon this link from several years ago which has a reference to the Messner cartridge:

Heiner Demenus

Heini's Cartridges

While the examples may not be everyone's cup of tea, it is an interesting and informative website.

Regards.

 

[Varberger757]

I started looking through some of my older notes and came upon this link from several years ago which has a reference to the Messner cartridge:

Heiner Demenus

Heini's Cartridges

While the examples may not be everyone's cup of tea, it is an interesting and informative website.

Regards.

Thank you for sharing this particular website. Very impressive constructions and ideas to find there. Personally, I do love especially the 7mmICM, 8mmMBM and of course the 9,3x64 cats with the 6,5 Messner Mag among them. Found also the magnificent 8,5x63 Reb which is accepted as regular factory round in Germany and Europe. One of the best balanced .338 on the market IMHO. Handles all from 154gr bullets up to 300gr equally sovereign. Already throated for the performance - enhanced use of monolithic projectiles, it would be my clear NR. 1 when looking for a high power .338 cartridge. But I do stay with my 8mmS/.323!

 

[jonthomps]

Sounds like an outstanding round! It would be great if we had components available here in the US for it. With numbers like that I'm sure it would take off.