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[ 07-11-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
The .275 Weatherby for LRH?
- Thread starter Big Sky
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Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
6.5 and Holmes.
Thanks for the input. You cleared the discussion up concerning 120 Gr Sierra HPBT bullets well.
Later
DC
Thanks for the input. You cleared the discussion up concerning 120 Gr Sierra HPBT bullets well.
Later
DC
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[ 07-11-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
6.5 Bandit
Well-Known Member
S1,
You seem to be missing the whole point here...
We all know it can do the job but the fact is there is still better choices for it..
As far as your bet well... There really is no need to prove anything.. Everything has been takin with a 22 and you would be lucky to see 300 fpe prolly more like 200 fpe at the muzzle... But is it ideal?? No!! Can it be done yes!!
So would the 120 Sierra work?? Yes!! Would it be ideal?? NO!!
6.5 Bandit
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: 6.5 Bandit ]
You seem to be missing the whole point here...
We all know it can do the job but the fact is there is still better choices for it..
As far as your bet well... There really is no need to prove anything.. Everything has been takin with a 22 and you would be lucky to see 300 fpe prolly more like 200 fpe at the muzzle... But is it ideal?? No!! Can it be done yes!!
So would the 120 Sierra work?? Yes!! Would it be ideal?? NO!!
6.5 Bandit
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: 6.5 Bandit ]
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6.5.. you missed the point of the person who started this thread, and his question was directed at the capabilities of the .257 for Mulies and smaller. Your bud DC told him not past 700, that is bull$h_t.
There are several example of bullets that will bring over 900 ft. lbs. of energy to 1,000 yards, and anyone who does not think that 900 ft. lbs. will do the job effectively on a deer is either in denial, or on crack. By your logic a 6.5 is not acceptable because there are 30 cals, and a 30 is not acceptable because ther are 50 BMG's around, certainly more optimal than a 30 for killing at 1,000 yards. Why not just drop a MOAB on his horns and get it over with? How dead is Dead? If 900 ft. lbs. is not enough to kill a deer efficiently, then you and DC have a huge number of Brown Bear guides to email before they get their customers or themselves killed!
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
There are several example of bullets that will bring over 900 ft. lbs. of energy to 1,000 yards, and anyone who does not think that 900 ft. lbs. will do the job effectively on a deer is either in denial, or on crack. By your logic a 6.5 is not acceptable because there are 30 cals, and a 30 is not acceptable because ther are 50 BMG's around, certainly more optimal than a 30 for killing at 1,000 yards. Why not just drop a MOAB on his horns and get it over with? How dead is Dead? If 900 ft. lbs. is not enough to kill a deer efficiently, then you and DC have a huge number of Brown Bear guides to email before they get their customers or themselves killed!
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
Holmes
Well-Known Member
The Sierra 120 gr HPBT was an incredible disappointment for me when I got into the LR game.
I had been building ammo for years for a friend's 25/06 using this bullet. He is a traditional distance hunter and the HPBT was like a magical slayer of game within his 250-300 yard range. I witnessed his shooting and became interested in the cartridge.
I, too, had wonderful success at traditional distances with the bullet until I tried it in my first LR rat rifle. Boy, was that an eye opener!
Out past the 500 yard mark, that big cavity must really start catchin' the wind. Sunk like a stone and the wind wreaked havoc with it when compared to the 100 gr MK.
Soon after, I tried the 117 SBT and all was well again! Great performance on antelope, mule deer, and whitetails.
My field results with this bullet are very much in line with the tables as published by Sierra when altitude corrections are considered.
Someday I may have to try one of those hotrod 25s. Darryl's making me envious
I had been building ammo for years for a friend's 25/06 using this bullet. He is a traditional distance hunter and the HPBT was like a magical slayer of game within his 250-300 yard range. I witnessed his shooting and became interested in the cartridge.
I, too, had wonderful success at traditional distances with the bullet until I tried it in my first LR rat rifle. Boy, was that an eye opener!
Out past the 500 yard mark, that big cavity must really start catchin' the wind. Sunk like a stone and the wind wreaked havoc with it when compared to the 100 gr MK.
Soon after, I tried the 117 SBT and all was well again! Great performance on antelope, mule deer, and whitetails.
My field results with this bullet are very much in line with the tables as published by Sierra when altitude corrections are considered.
Someday I may have to try one of those hotrod 25s. Darryl's making me envious
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Careful Holmes, you are'nt implying that a .257 might actually kill something past 700 yards are you?
Brent
Well-Known Member
I had to reread this thread "twice" to see where I missed something, I missed alot the first time. Now I know alot's been said between you boys, but it brings up a few more things too, a good arguement always does though.
At this point, I know neither one of you's got thin skin either, so suck it up guys... here goes.
DC posted a .485 BC for the Sierra 120... that's the first thing I missed the first time I read this. Not until Sam quoted him saying it anyway, I thought Darryl was talking about a different bullet back there, so I was confussed as hell the whole rest of the way through. I started to feel like a doughhead, that's when I knew I must have missed something back there.
For the life of me, I was even more stumped when Darryl started quoting a .370 BC for what seemed like the same bullet... I went back and read it all again, what a freakin headache.
I never seen a place where DC corrected his statement of the .485 BC before he started quoting the .370 BC.... and I'm here to tell ya, it all went down hill from there.
Seems like that's one of Sams big bitches here, at least I know what the hell he was talkin about now.
Ok now, what's the lowdown on energy requirements for deer and elk at 1000 yards and beyond, and is it the same for elk and deer both??? I'd think elk would be more like moose and require half again or two times the energy to penitrate fully than a little deer would. Am I wrong, or do you subscribe to the "slamm 'em to the ground" dead in their tracks instantly... or pass on the shot type hunting. I for one will take a shot and let the animal walk/run off and die if he pleases. The aim is a quick kill, but it don't always happen that way.
What size steel plate do I need to practice on for a elk, and what size for deer? I will have enough cash to get down there and do it sometime soon. Anyone?
I think as far as energy goes, I'm fighting a potentially loosing battle with wind and accuracy with most every cartridge I have right now before distance plays a big enough role to worry about energy. I guess if you can "consistantly" hit kill zone size targets at the ultra long range then maybe it's worth a better look at what cartridge you're shooting and what it's got left in her out that far. I for one, believe most game suffers from an over confident and unpracticed shooter that can't hit **** at the range he claims he can, not the undergunned guy. If I can't hit my kill zone size target 100% of the time at whatever range, every time I'm out shooting, my self imposed range gets reduced until I can. At least a shot can then be taken within that range with a high 90 percent chance that shot's going to connect. That said, I missed my shot on a freakin black bear at only 450 yards just weeks ago! I still haven't reconciled that misplaced shot. Every spotter round I fired right after that was dead nuts on with the vertical and wind I had dialed in, even had the 30 degree angle up hill figured right too. **** happens though. That bear died an hour later anyway, it just took a hike down and up the other side to get him **** it.
BTW, my Grandfather shoots a 257wby and a 300wby as well. As an old artillary man from the 3rd ID, he appreciates ballistics a bit more than the average guy too.
The 257wby's got my vote to 1000 yards, although there's always something with a little more smack down power out there in anything you choose. You never know, you might be a better shooter with that little of recoil and range could be thus extended to 1000 with confidence.
Just my 2 cents...
Take care
DC posted a .485 BC for the Sierra 120... that's the first thing I missed the first time I read this. Not until Sam quoted him saying it anyway, I thought Darryl was talking about a different bullet back there, so I was confussed as hell the whole rest of the way through. I started to feel like a doughhead, that's when I knew I must have missed something back there.
For the life of me, I was even more stumped when Darryl started quoting a .370 BC for what seemed like the same bullet... I went back and read it all again, what a freakin headache.
I never seen a place where DC corrected his statement of the .485 BC before he started quoting the .370 BC.... and I'm here to tell ya, it all went down hill from there.
Seems like that's one of Sams big bitches here, at least I know what the hell he was talkin about now.
Ok now, what's the lowdown on energy requirements for deer and elk at 1000 yards and beyond, and is it the same for elk and deer both??? I'd think elk would be more like moose and require half again or two times the energy to penitrate fully than a little deer would. Am I wrong, or do you subscribe to the "slamm 'em to the ground" dead in their tracks instantly... or pass on the shot type hunting. I for one will take a shot and let the animal walk/run off and die if he pleases. The aim is a quick kill, but it don't always happen that way.
What size steel plate do I need to practice on for a elk, and what size for deer? I will have enough cash to get down there and do it sometime soon. Anyone?
I think as far as energy goes, I'm fighting a potentially loosing battle with wind and accuracy with most every cartridge I have right now before distance plays a big enough role to worry about energy. I guess if you can "consistantly" hit kill zone size targets at the ultra long range then maybe it's worth a better look at what cartridge you're shooting and what it's got left in her out that far. I for one, believe most game suffers from an over confident and unpracticed shooter that can't hit **** at the range he claims he can, not the undergunned guy. If I can't hit my kill zone size target 100% of the time at whatever range, every time I'm out shooting, my self imposed range gets reduced until I can. At least a shot can then be taken within that range with a high 90 percent chance that shot's going to connect. That said, I missed my shot on a freakin black bear at only 450 yards just weeks ago! I still haven't reconciled that misplaced shot. Every spotter round I fired right after that was dead nuts on with the vertical and wind I had dialed in, even had the 30 degree angle up hill figured right too. **** happens though. That bear died an hour later anyway, it just took a hike down and up the other side to get him **** it.
BTW, my Grandfather shoots a 257wby and a 300wby as well. As an old artillary man from the 3rd ID, he appreciates ballistics a bit more than the average guy too.
Take care
Dan Conzo
Well-Known Member
Big Sky
The 108 grain JLK VLD bullet only drops 242" @ 1022 yards from a 200 Yard Zero, traveling @ 3200 fps @ the muzzle. This BC of this bullet must be over .500. I shot these out of a 25/06--your 257 Wby should even be faster. however I haven't killed anything with this bullet. The 117 Sierra BT kills nice but traveling @ 3015 fps @ muzzle drops 322" @ 1022 yards from a 200 yard Zero. Both of these firings were at 75 degrees and 1700 feet elevation (approximate). Both bullets are very accurate. The JLK doesn't have much bearing surface and a short boattail (tricky to seat with proper neck tension) but very well made.
I have never tried the 110 grain Fowler flat base bullets or the 115 grain Berger VLD bullets but people seem to like them. I wish Sierra would make a 25 caliber bullet about 125 grains, match grade with a .500
to .550 BC that would stabilize in a 10" twist.
Hope this helps.
---Dan
The 108 grain JLK VLD bullet only drops 242" @ 1022 yards from a 200 Yard Zero, traveling @ 3200 fps @ the muzzle. This BC of this bullet must be over .500. I shot these out of a 25/06--your 257 Wby should even be faster. however I haven't killed anything with this bullet. The 117 Sierra BT kills nice but traveling @ 3015 fps @ muzzle drops 322" @ 1022 yards from a 200 yard Zero. Both of these firings were at 75 degrees and 1700 feet elevation (approximate). Both bullets are very accurate. The JLK doesn't have much bearing surface and a short boattail (tricky to seat with proper neck tension) but very well made.
I have never tried the 110 grain Fowler flat base bullets or the 115 grain Berger VLD bullets but people seem to like them. I wish Sierra would make a 25 caliber bullet about 125 grains, match grade with a .500
to .550 BC that would stabilize in a 10" twist.
Hope this helps.
---Dan
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Brent
In defense of what I said in the beginning, I stand corrected with the Matchking of .4 for the BC. that I did post.
After retracing my steps on this topic,
I had looked at the Oehler program and had gone down to far and into the 264 bullets of the Speer 140 gr. and posted that BC by mistake.
After the thread got a bit heated, I went back to the Oehler Program and the "Green" Sierra manual and found that the BC of the 257 120 Gr BTHP was actually a miserable .370 BC which I ran the numbers on. I never corrected my first post of the .4----My mistake there.
I repeated several times for those responding to go to that book as I then had two sources that said the same thing (or close) about THAT bullet (Sierra 120gr HPBT) which someone had mentioned would work at 1000 yards.
It is my experiance (and others) with the 120 gr Sierra HPBT that the bullet dies at extended ranges compaired to other lighter bullets. I have three 25 cals to back up those comments. The Hollow point is huge on that bullet and it does not float well at all. Probably the worst bullet in the Sierra line.
I think it really went downhill after S1 posted that the 120 Gr would work at 1000 yards and "this" I did not agree with at all because of the two sources saying the bullet only had a BC of .370. It had a very low remaining Foot Pounds of energy left at that range of 1000 yards.
I also posted for "Foot Pounds" FPs which I thought everyone would know that the two large letters FP meant Foot pounds. The small s got hit accidently. I am not perfect and type fast most of the time.
I have posted the Sierra BC from "Holmes" who has backed up what I was saying from the start after I found those two sources.
posted 05-20-2003 02:13 PM
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As per the Sierra web site:
.257 dia. 120 gr. HPBT
.350 @ 2400 fps and "above"
.357 between 2400 and 1600 fps
.330 @ 1600 fps and below
Now if someone wants to hunt with a bullet such as the 120 Sierra HPBT at 1000 yards, I would suggest he has a lot of scope clicks available to him or he keeps his shots fairly close. There are better bullets made for the 25 cal that will reach out much better but, the 120gr Sierra HPBT is not one of them. I think we all (or most) agree to that.
The original poster (Big Sky) said his shots would probably be in the "600 Yd" range and possibly to 800 yards and I agreed to those ranges with the 25 but, certainly not with the 120 gr and not to 1000 yards.
I know of those who have used the 25 on deer at "extended range" without real good "quick kill" results and they were using GOOD bullets.
It would be fine at the ranges that Big Sky mentioned he wanted to hunt but, only with a better bullet then the 120 gr Sierra HPBT.
My 25 cals work real well on woodchucks with 100 gr Ballistic tips at extended range.
Later
DC
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
In defense of what I said in the beginning, I stand corrected with the Matchking of .4 for the BC. that I did post.
After retracing my steps on this topic,
I had looked at the Oehler program and had gone down to far and into the 264 bullets of the Speer 140 gr. and posted that BC by mistake.
After the thread got a bit heated, I went back to the Oehler Program and the "Green" Sierra manual and found that the BC of the 257 120 Gr BTHP was actually a miserable .370 BC which I ran the numbers on. I never corrected my first post of the .4----My mistake there.
I repeated several times for those responding to go to that book as I then had two sources that said the same thing (or close) about THAT bullet (Sierra 120gr HPBT) which someone had mentioned would work at 1000 yards.
It is my experiance (and others) with the 120 gr Sierra HPBT that the bullet dies at extended ranges compaired to other lighter bullets. I have three 25 cals to back up those comments. The Hollow point is huge on that bullet and it does not float well at all. Probably the worst bullet in the Sierra line.
I think it really went downhill after S1 posted that the 120 Gr would work at 1000 yards and "this" I did not agree with at all because of the two sources saying the bullet only had a BC of .370. It had a very low remaining Foot Pounds of energy left at that range of 1000 yards.
I also posted for "Foot Pounds" FPs which I thought everyone would know that the two large letters FP meant Foot pounds. The small s got hit accidently. I am not perfect and type fast most of the time.
I have posted the Sierra BC from "Holmes" who has backed up what I was saying from the start after I found those two sources.
posted 05-20-2003 02:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As per the Sierra web site:
.257 dia. 120 gr. HPBT
.350 @ 2400 fps and "above"
.357 between 2400 and 1600 fps
.330 @ 1600 fps and below
Now if someone wants to hunt with a bullet such as the 120 Sierra HPBT at 1000 yards, I would suggest he has a lot of scope clicks available to him or he keeps his shots fairly close. There are better bullets made for the 25 cal that will reach out much better but, the 120gr Sierra HPBT is not one of them. I think we all (or most) agree to that.
The original poster (Big Sky) said his shots would probably be in the "600 Yd" range and possibly to 800 yards and I agreed to those ranges with the 25 but, certainly not with the 120 gr and not to 1000 yards.
I know of those who have used the 25 on deer at "extended range" without real good "quick kill" results and they were using GOOD bullets.
It would be fine at the ranges that Big Sky mentioned he wanted to hunt but, only with a better bullet then the 120 gr Sierra HPBT.
My 25 cals work real well on woodchucks with 100 gr Ballistic tips at extended range.
Later
DC
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
Dan Conzo
Well-Known Member
Big Sky
I thought you would like to know that in 1968 there were two 25/06s that placed in the top 15 aggregate for the year and both used the 117 grain Sierra BT Spitzer with 4831 powder @ the Williamsport 1000 Yard Club. Howeer, the 25 caliber has never placed since then as far as I know. At that time it was the only good bullet available for the 25 caliber @ long range except for a heavy custom bullet which required a faster than 10" barrel twist.
---Dan
---
I thought you would like to know that in 1968 there were two 25/06s that placed in the top 15 aggregate for the year and both used the 117 grain Sierra BT Spitzer with 4831 powder @ the Williamsport 1000 Yard Club. Howeer, the 25 caliber has never placed since then as far as I know. At that time it was the only good bullet available for the 25 caliber @ long range except for a heavy custom bullet which required a faster than 10" barrel twist.
---Dan
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Perhaps one of you Experts on terminal ballistics would be willing to don a level IIIA vest and take one for the team to show us all how non lethal a .257 is at 1,000 yards? I doubt it.
I Stand by my original statement, there are bullets that will deliver deer lethal energy out to 1,000 yards and 900 ft. lbs. will get it done. We kill deer with .243 IMP at 1,000 with a .500 b.c. A-max starting at 3,300 fps. and a .257 with a .522 b.c. only brings more lethal energy to the target.
I Stand by my original statement, there are bullets that will deliver deer lethal energy out to 1,000 yards and 900 ft. lbs. will get it done. We kill deer with .243 IMP at 1,000 with a .500 b.c. A-max starting at 3,300 fps. and a .257 with a .522 b.c. only brings more lethal energy to the target.
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
S1
I agree with the .500 and .522 BC with 900 Foot Pounds of energy. That's plenty to kill deer at 1000 yards. I do remember saying I like a minimum of 900 to 1000 Foot pounds of energy.
Yes, those two bullets you mentioned will get it done but, with the listed BC of only .370 in the 120gr Sierra BTHP and below, I feel the BC and remaining energy is a bit low for the 1000 yard clean kills and I stand by that comment.
The 120 Gr Sierra BTHP bullet is terrible and one would have to shoot it to see just how terrible it is. Drops like a ton of bricks.
I do realize that, there are better bullets for the 25.
Good shooting to all.
Later
DC
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
I agree with the .500 and .522 BC with 900 Foot Pounds of energy. That's plenty to kill deer at 1000 yards. I do remember saying I like a minimum of 900 to 1000 Foot pounds of energy.
Yes, those two bullets you mentioned will get it done but, with the listed BC of only .370 in the 120gr Sierra BTHP and below, I feel the BC and remaining energy is a bit low for the 1000 yard clean kills and I stand by that comment.
The 120 Gr Sierra BTHP bullet is terrible and one would have to shoot it to see just how terrible it is. Drops like a ton of bricks.
I do realize that, there are better bullets for the 25.
Good shooting to all.
Later
DC
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
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S1 you have too much to say and not enough brains to know when to shut your mouth. many of us our here to learn, not listen to you bash others. i am getting use to just skipping over anything with S1 in front of it
