Test-Effect of Brushing Necks vs Graphite vs Both on ES

[Wedgy]

Good write up. I enjoy seeing real data. Just a suggestion, but I think SD tells you more than ES because it uses every data point, where ES throws out all but the hi/lo points.

Yes and no; this is long range hunting where ES matters, not comps, not averages or season ags. First and only cold bore shot has to be where you send it. Your SD might be in the vitals but your high and low ES are a miss or worse a wounding shot with no recovery.

 

[DocDoc]

Wedge,
I am not sure I understand your point? SD and ES are directly related. 3 standard deviations should contain 95% of your hits. So, the smaller SD, the better the chance of a hit under the same conditions. Wind calls are one of the biggest at distance.

 

[Wedgy]

Wedge,
I am not sure I understand your point? SD and ES are directly related. 3 standard deviations should contain 95% of your hits. So, the smaller SD, the better the chance of a hit under the same conditions. Wind calls are one of the biggest at distance.

An SD can still look good with a high ES , decide for yourself what is a hit or miss at each end of your ES. I don't feel an SD a meaningful number for LRH.
As you said though, at that distance the wind is probably a bigger factor.

 

[Greasegun]

An SD can still look good with a high ES , decide for yourself what is a hit or miss at each end of your ES. I don't feel an SD a meaningful number for LRH.
As you said though, at that distance the wind is probably a bigger factor.

I used to think this way about SD and ES. After studying statistics related to shooting, I realise now SD is actually more meaningful than ES.

For example. First of all, rifles are like random number generators, If you fire enough shots and graph them, the population will have a bell shape, where the majority of the shots fall into the mean area of the graph. This may take 100 shots or more to see the whole picture and what your true ES and SD are. Now for example if you fire 10 shots, your graph may look nothing like a bell. You could have 10 that all repeat close together, 10 widely scattered, or 9 almost the same and one strange outlier. They are all part of the same population. SD gives you a better idea of what the actual size of that population is, because its a measurement of 10 data points. ES only takes the best and worst of the 10. You have no idea really if those hi and low are at all indicative of the population. Statistics tell us a sample size of 10 is pretty insignificant. You need over 30 rounds to have 85-90% confidence that your group is real and not skewed by outliers. None of us have time to shoot 35 round groups, so we shoot 5 or 10 round groups, eliminate the bad and retest the good for confirmation.

To each his own, just trying to help!

 

[AZShooter]

I remember my friend who shot 1000 yds would anneal his brass and tell me the inside of the neck lost its carbon. He felt it raised the force necessary to seat bullet which should affect release and downrange performance that would be different from carbon left in the necks. His solution was to fire the brass once to get the carbon back and to anneal every time.

I carefully read the entire five pages. I appreciate your efforts Chase.

As to what has been mentioned in this thread can get confusing at times...….We have posters that said they have found the best method: Annealing every time, never annealing, annealing every third time, using inside neck lube, not using inside neck lube, using coated bullets or not and brushing inside of necks.

I am left thinking about consistent neck tension/bullet release and how best to do it. I will be sure to brush the insides of my necks regardless of any other process.

 

[new2mud]

I will be sure to brush the insides of my necks regardless of any other process.

This has been my exact takeaway from this thread as well. Thanks all for the suggestions and shared experiences.

Will try this today.

 

[TX Badger]

I do the following:
Deprime
Sonic clean
Anneal, which also dries
Let cool /dry more
Prime
Lube in a gallon zip lock with spray lube
Resize
Charge
Seat

I seam to have a lot of seating resistance which really became apparent when I started using Wilson seaters & an arbor press. I am thinking that washing out all the carbon is the culprit and I need to add inside neck lube. Anyone else using similar steps find a solution? Graphite before resizing is what I plan to try next.

 

[Wedgy]

Sonic clean


I seam to have a lot of seating resistance which really became apparent when I started using Wilson seaters & an arbor press.

The ultrasonic gets them too clean for me and I had the same issue seating as you describe

 

[GLTaylor]

Same here with too clean and increased seating pressure.
I'm back to dry media and tumbling only when brass starts to tarnish/look ugly.
Otherwise, i just clean outside of necks with 0000 steel wool and brush inside case necks with nylon brush. This is a carry over from old benchrest days.
For new brass or cleaned brass i add graphite powder to make initial seating easier until i get carbon back in case necks. I use Wilson in line seaters for all my rifles. You can really feel what is going on more than with a press. Also the Wilsons virtually eliminate runout IMO.
Thanks Alex. You validated an old practice.
Regards.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, I'm totally with you. The bullets and targets never lie. Reading what you've posted on here over the years has been extremely helpful to me psonally. Frankly, a lot of what I do comes directly from stuff you've written. Not to get soft or anything but I want you to know that I appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge.

The next thing I think I'm going to test is sorting brass by velocity. Meaning I'm going to load up 20 rounds, shoot them over the chrony, and then cull the cases that aren't within 5fps of each other. Then re-prep, load, and shoot the keepers over the chrony again and see if just doing that will result in lower ES/SD. Have you tried that?

If your using quality brass like adg or lapua you will have a hard time sorting it in my experience. I have not had trouble getting under 20fps es with unsorted cases. And when your under 20, its not holding your groups back if your tuned right. 20fps es will shoot sub 2" at 1k, the tune is far more important. In fact I shot 2 1kyd group agg records while cycling 200 unsorted cases.

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

Otherwise, i just clean outside of necks with 0000 steel wool and brush inside case necks with nylon brush.

This is a good technique and works well for me.